We are thrilled to have Freddy McConnell on Some Families! Freddy joins Lotte and Stu to talk about his journey to parenthood and how he felt about his body being pregnant. Freddy also talks about the on-going court case that is now being taken to the European Court of Human Rights for him and his son, and the legal challenges and discriminations trans families face. The group also discuss and break down gendered parenting terms and how stereotypes can often limit parenthood, and look at how important it is to utilise the word parent and parenting.
Full transcription below:
Freddy: No, we have this gender neutral word for mother and father is parent is like, we just don’t realise the power of it all the time. We don’t realise actually how much of what we call mothering and fathering is just parenting being trans and giving birth to my kid. And I, I want that to be our normal and for it to be his normal.
Lotte Jeffs: Hello, listener and welcome to some families, the podcast where you can get all your LGBTQ plus family news insights, advice, and support. I love being part of this community and with my favourite cohost, Mr. Stu Oakley.
Stu Oakley: Hello, Lotte and hello listener. I love being with you as well, Lotte. Although again, we are recording remotely and I’m not sitting opposite you, but hopefully.
Hopefully soon, it’s only
Lotte Jeffs: a matter of time
Stu Oakley: and regardless of where we are in the world, we have an amazing episode for you. But as always, before we get stuck in, I do like to check in, get a weather report, get my weekly Jeff’s household omnibus, keeping up with the jets. So how are you lossy? And more importantly, Do you have a glass of parents ruin with you tonight?
Um, thank you for being interested in my, in my family lifestyle. I’m more interested in what you have to drink.
Lotte Jeffs: Well, I have to drink is really boring. Stay I’m drinking a bit. Sorry to let the side down, we’ve got this idea of queer alternative to mother’s ruin, which is some sort of fabulous cocktail. But tonight my daughter wouldn’t go to sleep and I didn’t have time to crack open the cocktail cabinet.
So a nice cold beer is what I’m. What I’m drinking this evening. Thank you for asking. So you I’m really good. We have finally got some childcare after almost three years of having a child without any help or nursery. And we have found a fantastic queer nanny. Who comes and does a few afternoons a week with us at home looking after our daughter.
And it is absolutely fantastic. And life-changing, and, um, brilliant. And she is great DME. If you want her, her info, it’s a complete coincidence that she’s queer. I was going to say, did you actually search out? No, not at all. We just went through an agency and she was the first person that came. And when she came through the door, I clocked a little pride flag on her trainers and I was like, Hmm.
Okay. Let’s do let’s just ask a few little questions and try and find out here without asking outright. And then she mentioned her girlfriend and we were like, it shouldn’t matter. She did it, she wouldn’t make it, but somehow it’s just, it just felt really nice. And it felt like we would be been sort of like the gods of parenting had gifted us, this, this brilliant person who also just happened to.
To completely get both family dynamic and you know, want that for herself one day too. So yeah, it’s been brilliant having habit. What it’s meant is my daughter now thinks she has three mums because she’s been calling our nanny mum. And then I’m mama and then Jenny’s mommy and I, and, and he’s really sweet and she always corrects her and she says, what’s my name?
That’s not my name. But, um, I think now my daughter thinks that she probably has three mums, but you know, why not? Like, well, she got sick shove, another one in there. It’s fine.
Stu Oakley: Are there queer nanny agencies for LGBTQ plus parents? Who, for exactly the reasons that you say, just having that comfort of having somebody come into your house.
Gets you and get to your family.
Lotte Jeffs: I think it’s a brilliant idea. Can we patent this now, before anyone else? Right. It’s a great idea. Nobody’s done it yet. Some families childcare agency. Oh my God. It would be brilliant.
Stu, how are you?
Stu Oakley: I’m really good. We’ve had a great week, one funny little moment this week.
So we had our floors done a couple of weeks ago and these two, let’s say the older guys came in and did the whole floor for us. And they were brilliant. And my husband, John spent most of the time with them and then they left and then John came up to me and said, Oh, I was laughing inside because he kept calling you my colleague.
Which I just thought was hilarious. He didn’t know, quite know has to, is a new one. I’ve not had that one before, like, Oh, I was speaking to,
Lotte Jeffs: I would have thought he would have gone to flatmate flatmate first or Manny, Eva
Stu Oakley: or friends. We’ve had friend a lot of times. Oh, is this your, you know, your friend. Maybe he thought maybe I think he thought I was the queer nanny because I was dealing with the kids.
Lotte Jeffs: Well, talking of colleagues, we got to catch up with one of our podcasting colleagues. Um, this week, Freddie McConnell and Freddy, for those of you who don’t know is the proud father to a little boy. He might actually hear in the background of the interview because he was well past his bedtime, not for want of trying on Freddy’s part.
And he was sitting next to Freddie while we spoke to him. Freddie is a trans man and his recent film, seahorse documents, his decisions have a baby through tears, pregnancy, and the delivery. It’s incredibly powerful. And you must see it. See horse made a real impact, not only in the LGBTQ plus community, but beyond and brought trans issues.
To send to stage and helped
to educate people.
Stu Oakley: It’s a really beautiful film. And, and Freddie actually now has his own podcast as well, pride and joy, which we love. And if you love our podcast, I’m sure you love Freddy’s podcast as well.
Freddie, welcome to some families. We have Freddy. He is. Uh, podcasting pro under a blanket, speaking to us now with his gorgeous little boy next to him, who’s having some sleeping issues that I think we’ve all experienced. I think Freddie and I’s sons are pretty much the same age. So, uh, I I’m completely with you on that
Freddy: one, Freddie.
That’s good to know. Yeah. I don’t know how this is going to go. I have a few interruptions.
Stu Oakley: I have cameos from him. It’s all good. So a lot of our listeners will be familiar with you, especially as many have listened to your wonderful podcast, pride and joy. But for those who may not, could you tell us a little bit about the journey that you made to transitioning and what it meant for you when you were thinking about your dreams of becoming a biological parent?
Freddy: So many years in, in my. Process that it kind of feels weird to summarize them. Cause I suppose it can make it sound as though it all sort of happened really quickly. So bearing in mind, this is happening over the course of like 10 years. So I transitioned when I was in my mid twenties and I sort of did that before entering the world of work, which was really handy and just kind of just, I suppose, luck and the way the stars aligned.
So. When I entered, I became a journalist. My first job was at the guardian. By that point, I was already sort of medically transitioned and, you know, kind of living as who I am today. So what’s the guardian for six years. And about halfway through, I went to Australia to work at guardian Australia. And that was around the time that I was really thinking about like, You know, I really want to start a family and I don’t know, really know how, and I sort of had been led to believe by the clinic that I attended to have get my testosterone and that kind of thing that the testosterone treatment would make me in fertile, permanently.
So I had written off the idea of having biological children. Because I couldn’t afford to get my eggs frozen and that kind of thing. And when I was in Australia, I discovered some videos on YouTube from trans men in the States who were pregnant and it totally blew my mind. It was kind of amazing and terrifying at the same time, because.
I was just flabbergasted that that was even possible and angry. I’d been misinformed, but also terrified because I sort of knew, Oh, well this is something I really am going to have to consider for myself now that I know it’s possible because I have a really supportive network of like family and friends.
So I kind of knew that, like, I think I could probably do this. If I feel strong enough, then. My boss in Australia at the guardian was really supportive and she sort of agreed to let me finish my contract a bit early and go back to the office in London. And then pretty quickly after that, when I was back home, I went to see my endocrinologist, just like a Homeland doctor.
He was like, Oh yeah, this is a thing some people do. And this is just what you need to do. So I stopped taking testosterone and within six months had conceived and. then had my kid and I was a single dad by choice and felt quite comfortable doing that. That sort of felt like the right thing to me. And I am really loving it.
I have really loved pretty much every minute of it ever since. Freddy,
Lotte Jeffs: do you think that trans people are now being given better information and advice, obviously you were told just incorrect information and has that changed,
do you think?
Freddy: No, I, I don’t know if it has, honestly, I, I fear that trans men.
Going to NHS gender clinics are still being asked to sign a consent form, which basically says that they understand that the wording of it is, is sort of vague, but it’s sort of the understanding is that you will no longer be able to have biological children. And whether that’s because they are trying to make us believe that testosterone does make us infertile or whether they are just assuming that every trans man is the same and therefore has exactly the same transition experience.
I E. Once you start test Australia, you never stopped for any reason, the end, which just isn’t the reality for lots and lots of people for lots of reasons is unclear. You know, I wouldn’t want to sit here and say doctors really, really just don’t want us to have babies. I think it’s probably much more a case of a mix of miss information, misunderstanding, lack of research, and a really kind of old school.
Way of thinking about gender and gender expression and family. Can
Lotte Jeffs: I ask a bit about your experience of getting pregnant? Did you do IVF and how did, how was that for you? And do you mind me asking how many rounds you
Freddy: did? Yeah, sure. I actually didn’t do IVF. I did Rui. Okay. My wife did that. Yeah. And, and that’s, uh, you know, just sort of goes back to the point of when we say testosterone doesn’t make us in fertile.
We really mean it like the people that know that now we’re sort of realizing as a community that actually it doesn’t harm your facility at all, or at least there’s no evidence that harms your fertility as well. So I didn’t have any pre-existing fertility issues. Obviously some people will, but because I didn’t, once the T was clear of my system, I can see really easily.
So I conceived on my second attempt with unmedicated IUI.
Lotte Jeffs: Wow. Brilliant. How old were you at the time?
Freddy: I was thirty one, I think.
Lotte Jeffs: Okay. Yeah. Yeah, good
age for
Freddy: your work. Yeah, exactly. And, and, and, you know, I definitely feel like I got lucky to an extent, but, um, and actually some trans men it’s worth saying, I always want to say when I get the opportunity, Tesla’s very nicely, isn’t it a good contraceptive, even when you’re on it.
So plenty of trans men have the experience of getting pregnant while they’re taking tea, because you still have your late, even though you don’t get a period. And then obviously they have to decide what to do at that point. It’s a, there’s lots of information out that should be held, that it isn’t. Yeah.
Stu Oakley: And coming off of testosterone or tea is, must be a huge, huge deal. If you’re a, if you’re on your journey to becoming a transparent and you’re faced with the prospect of, of coming off of testosterone, I mean, what advice would you give. Um, and how did you feel at the time? Because that is a, that’s a, that’s a big thing for a trans
Freddy: person, right.
Can really be a big ordeal. And it certainly was for me to stop testosterone, but the idea that everyone’s transition is different and everyone’s experience is different. It’s really, really true. And it’s no less true in this situation. So like, I mean, I suppose it’s worth saying that like there’s trans men who never go on testosterone.
So for them it’s less of a big deal. I know of a trans man who stopped T to have a baby and then just like never went on again. It doesn’t mean that he’s not trans or a man, and that’s not how he lives, but he just didn’t ever restart it for whatever reason and actually testosterone. Sort of the changes that it brings about don’t disappear when you stop taking it.
It does feel, I mean, to me, it was quite traumatic and hard, and I really felt aware of every minute, little difference that I could feel in my self physically and mentally, but the outside world, you know, if I asked anyone or if I sort of said, Oh, I’m feeling really anxious. I’m feeling really dysphoric today.
They’d be like, what are you talking about me? Like, you don’t look any different, you know, it’s only different. So. And I know lots of trans men who didn’t struggle as much as I did, even if testosterone is really important to them. And I suppose like this, we’ll say we’re saying that coming off T. It’s quite subtle compared to actually being pregnant.
It was being pregnant. That was much more that’s when all the, obviously there’s other hormones kick in. And yeah.
Lotte Jeffs: And how did you feel about your body
when you were pregnant?
Freddy: Complicated? So like linked to this whole, the testosterone thing for me still, when I was pregnant, it was being off T that was the hard thing.
I sort of felt like if I could be pregnant and on tea or just have tea in my system, then. It, it would have been so much easier. I felt quite sick and I felt quite uncomfortable. What, while I was pregnant, I didn’t have one of those like walk in the park pregnancy. And some people have the dysphoria and they’d like the gender bit of it was really centred around testosterone throughout for me and actually growing a baby inside me having a bum, all those sorts of things, which were quiet novel and nice.
I actually found it really psychologically helpful to feel kicks and. To be reminded of why I was putting myself through this. It was this weird split of like, it wasn’t actually being pregnant. It was hard. It was else. And then
Stu Oakley: outwardly as well. I mean, being pregnant, what was it like being out in public
Freddy: at that time?
It was really self-conscious because of the dysphoria, but a certain point I was able to sort of just accept that no one else was noticing it. Like no one else could see. What I, you know, felt inside sort of thing. So there’s that, but then there’s also the fact that I was never, ever read as pregnant when I was pregnant, like by a stranger.
And I think that’s down to a combination of things. Partly I carried really small and I just am quite small. So I sort of looked like a small guy with a beer belly. Also just the fact that no one looks at a pregnant man and understands the, what they’re seeing as a pregnant man. Like they will come up with.
Probably half a dozen other scenarios before they think pregnant man. So there’s like a really helpful form of protection. So actually I never felt, and you know, I wasn’t being open about what I was going through at the time. I’m probably like, well, there’s lots more visibility for people having babies in the community now.
So I’m not sure this would be the same if I go through it again. But yeah, at the time I didn’t really have to worry about people clocking me or about my own safety, because there’s like, no one. Ever since I was pregnant, like eat the whole way through, I’m not exaggerating. That’s, that’s nice.
Lotte Jeffs: That’s such a freedom.
I mean, one of the things that I’m most worried about if I ever get pregnant, I sort of have a, uh, a particular relationship with my body as being quite androgynous. And I just kind of can’t stand the idea of suddenly being this sort of like. Box I’m like overflowing with femininity women that everybody sort of makes assumptions about.
So I think that even within the scale of like queerness and identity, I think probably there’s a lot of women and fluid trans people who, who experienced that different degrees of that dysphoria. And I’m almost jealous that you could kind of, uh, hide it. Not that you were actively hiding it, but that
Freddy: it wasn’t red.
Yeah. I mean, I kind of was actively hiding it in some ways I was wearing really baggy loads and trying to be as shapeless as possible, but. I mean, it’s weird. Like, yes, I definitely was saved the discomfort of people treating me in the way they treat other pregnant people where they sort of feel like they have ownership of your body and they touch you.
And that sort of thing, like I never had to experience that, but at the same time, it’s kind of sad because I wasn’t liberated from my own dysphoria and sense of discomfort. So the whole experience was pretty awful. And I was struggling the whole way through. I wasn’t really able to just relax and enjoy it.
And I hope if I go through it again, I am able to. Yeah, it’s really interesting. You say that let’s see. Cause like, I think that there is as big an issue of all we see is a certain portrayal of a pregnant body and this idea of what it looks like. I mean, like my body didn’t actually, I was still quite small and.
I, I like I sought out and I do seek out sort of representations of pregnancy that aren’t just trans men, but like Butch women. And like, they’re like pregnancy is such an individual experience and people express it so differently. I just think. Yeah, we have is like total poverty of diverse reputations representations of pregnancy.
Lotte Jeffs: Freddie. I wanted to talk a bit about the limits of language and the words, mother and father. And do you think we’ll ever get to a point where the Signifyd is less rigid and we can open up the definition of those words to be more fluid and all encompassing? Or do you think that we’re stuck semantically?
With this quite archaic definition,
Freddy: I think we have opened up massively, especially within the LGBTQ world. And I think for me, it was really shocking to realise how, how limited those terms still are in other realms. Like the legal realm. Like I actually, sorry. Yeah.
Bedtime. You go upstairs then I’ll come up in a bit. Yeah. So like when, when I first started thinking about giving birth, I just sort of assumed I’d be able to go down as the father on the best of it, because I didn’t think it was like that big a deal or really anyone else’s business. And then I realised I couldn’t, and then I realised a whole load of other things about how mother and father and parent are defined on birth certificates and adoption certificates and et cetera, et cetera.
So like you have the lived reality on the social reality of lots of families that really. Like, I just think we’re kind of there in many ways. And especially when you have non binary parents using all sorts of words to identify themselves in kids, like just totally getting it and going along with it and this sort of thing that again, like not just the law, but actually I suppose, culturally and politically.
We still have a long way to go. Like, I don’t think the word parent gets enough credit for the court case. I was involved in when the judge said, you know, that mother is no longer agenda about term, which just to me seems completely absurd. And we have this gender neutral word for mother and father. His parent is like, we just don’t realise the power of it all the time.
We don’t realise actually how much of what we call mothering and fathering is just parenting three lines. It’s
Stu Oakley: so true. So true that word parenting just does cover so much and it should get used more. I think things are happening in that space to make it change, but there’s still a lot, lot to happen.
And particularly for LGBTQ plus parents as well, so that they feel more included
Freddy: in things. Yeah. I think it’s really shocking to realise that like the fact that on a birth certificate still, like, even though we have ways of. Sort of including LGBT parents and LGBT families in giving them like legal protections.
The words mother and father are still exclusively reserved for SIS heterosexual couples. I just hadn’t realised that like, because parental orders have parent one parent two adoption is two because her parent one parent, two lesbian mothers who don’t give birth or parent too. You can only be a mother or a father.
If you’ll read as a straight couple talk
Stu Oakley: us through, then the case that, that you’ve got at the moment, what is your, for those as, especially as well, that that may have not been following it. Like, what is your ultimate goal for it and what, what do you want to achieve? Not just for yourself, but for, for other transparents?
Freddy: Well, the goal of the case has, has definitely changed over time. And that was like unforeseen. I know I went into it thinking that I wanted to secure for my son. Well child at the time, this was before I conceived when it was still theoretical, I wanted to secure a birth certificate that would be accurate.
And I kind of made a promise to my unborn child that I would fight for that because I felt like I had the resources to do so. And the connections and that kind of thing to find the right kind of legal team. And then sort of not until we actually got to court years later and I started realising that like what the system actually says as it stands and how.
Outdated. It is an insufficient. It is for all sorts of LGBTQ parents. But then also there was a point moment in court when the government suddenly realised actually that this situation doesn’t just affect men who give birth it actually that there’s no legal recognition of trans parents full stop. And that’s really scary.
I mean, except I should say. Where someone has become a parent before they transitioned, because that’s all the law really imagined back in 2004, when gender recognition was made legal in the UK. And at that point, not only had, not only I realised that I actually realised that the case itself had sort of solidified that situation.
That was really scary. That was really like, Oh my God, I sort of felt like, what have I done? I’ve trans people live in sort of flying under the radar where trans men that didn’t give birth were registering his father because they didn’t think they had to say that they were trans when they went to register their children who they’d had through IVF often.
And suddenly the government came out and said, Oh, well, actually, no, that’s not meant to happen either. No trans man is meant to register his father. So. You know, now the aim of the case that we’re still fighting and take the European court of human rights is, is to just get like some legal recognition of the fact that trans people become parents in all sorts of ways.
And we shouldn’t have to register, uh, as our sex assigned at birth, you know, in all circumstances, it’s just, it’s just bizarre. So yeah, it’s become a much bigger issue. And then obviously I, like I said, I’ve learned all this other stuff about. The ways that other LGBTQ parents are discriminated against in the system of birth registration
Lotte Jeffs: and registered my daughter’s birth, having to put myself as parent too, I just felt sort of instantly demoted by that.
And at the time I was like, Oh, you know, fine. I’m lucky to have been able to do this at all. And then it’s only when I’ve really started to think about it through doing this podcast and talking to people like you to think, actually, maybe that’s not okay. Maybe I do deserve. To be on my daughter’s birth certificate as her mother as well.
Freddy: Yeah. It’s quite a British thing to sort of like, Oh, well I should just be grateful for it. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, maybe the best solution is for everyone to be parent. Parent is
Lotte Jeffs: a really useful one and I do, I’m happy to be on the birth certificate as a parent. It’s just when it’s used in relation to if it was parent.
A parent B, but when it’s like mother and then parent too, then it has a different weight. Right. Is that what it says on your daughter’s birth certificate then? Latte, is it, is it mother and then parent
Freddy: too, such a mess. And in, in Australia and in Canada and in lot of the European countries, it is all birth certificates.
Just say parent one, parent two. Um, and in lots of States, it’s parent one parent two, or in U S States, you can just decide whether to go down as a mother, parent, or father. So
Stu Oakley: how much support have you got on that case? Ready? Do you, is it, is it, you know, you’re taking it to the European courts. Have you got others supporting you within that?
Or is it just you against the system?
Freddy: Really? When it was in the UK courts. Well, there was a possibility that the, there would be only a solution for someone in my very specific circumstances, or there could have been a solution that would have made it better for transparency in general, that would have been sort of for the judge to say, in, in his or her judgment.
I think when it goes to the European court of human rights, as much more likely to be. Uh, a broader decision that, you know, for instance, the whole reason that we have gender recognition in the UK is because the European court of human rights decided at some point that you could not have trans people existing in this intermediate limbo zone between genders and governments had a duty to create a system of legal recognition.
And in a way, having parents go back into that intermediate zone or that limbo zone. Shows that the UK didn’t fulfil its duty in when it, when it originally had to create the system. So I could see Europe or European judges. Yeah. Making that kind of a broader decision of like, well, you just have to sort this out and it’s not just about, you know, Freddie McConnell and his family.
This is about human rights in general. So that, that could, in that sense, I suppose, going to Europe is much more powerful as long as. The UK government pays attention. I should say, as a family, my son has his own legal representation. This is something that’s never really highlighted in the media. He has his own lawyers as embarrassed as, and there.
And he is, his interests are put forth first by them always, even if they were at some point to diverged from mine in the opinion of his lawyers. So like his interests are being represented separately, which I think is a nuance is often missed and is really important.
Stu Oakley: Very interesting. Yeah. I mean, you’ve been, you’ve been fighting this case now, as you said, for a long time before even your son was born, I’m just interested in the, the emotional and personal toll that, that fighting this fight is taking on you.
If, if indeed it is and how you kind of just manage that anxiety on a day-to-day basis.
Freddy: Yeah, it was strangely. I think it was, I felt the hardest almost before it started. So technically it was triggered by the registrar in my local town. Refusing to register me as father. It didn’t actually start until that point.
So my son was sort of a newborn at that point. But before that, it was really unclear whether that would actually happen. Like there was a several moments where it seemed as though I would be able to register because the midwives in the hospital for what I would, and also the registrar locally thought I would, until they rang up the London registrar general.
And then they then clarify the situation. So there were these weird, stressful moments at which I was sort of like, well, maybe it’s all going to be fine. And I went up to go to court and then it was like crushing to realize that actually, no, it w it was, you know, gonna have to happen. And then ever since then, I felt so supported by.
My sister, Andrew and our incredible barristers, him and Hannah who specialize in human rights store and family law, respectably, and, you know, the, uh, lawyers representing my son and. Really, they do all the hard work, you know, there’s, there’s very little I can do is really that I can add except for my own sort of subjective experience.
And so in many ways it’s felt like a total privilege to be able to work with these people. And, you know, it’s like, it’s not surprising that the system fails trans people. So I don’t in a way I don’t really take it personally. It’s quite easy. I feel to distance myself from the situation. I’ve chosen to fight it.
And so, yeah, it doesn’t feel necessarily like an attack on me. I didn’t really feel like I’ve got anything to lose now.
Stu Oakley: Great, great. That’s really good to hear because I was worried that it would just kind of consume your every waking moment in a way of just thinking about it and going over and over things in your head and when you’re trying to get to sleep and stuff like that.
But I guess when you have a kid it’s really hard to be overwhelmed by anything other than.
Freddy: The kid that’s like really? It keeps you grounded. It keeps you in line. I mean, there have been, there are short burst of time when I’m worried about things, especially when it came to the anonymity issue. And I was worried about losing anonymity because of.
What it might mean for our safety and that sort of thing. Luckily none of those fears have been born out really there’s huge swathes of time where I’m not having to think about it at all, because you know, the judgment takes eight months to come down. I just have to just get on with life. So, and in those times I sort of miss my lawyers.
Yeah. It was a funny thing. I didn’t know, actually. I assume I’m so deep into it now. And if we were able to get some positive change in the end, it would be so worth it. So I’m feeling quite motivated at the moment. So Freddy,
Stu Oakley: something that I often feel quite frustrated about as a gay dad is how I it’s, it’s almost like it’s celebrated when I do something that a mum would never get celebrated for.
Um, and that dads are often seen as somehow less capable than mums. Um, So because of this, especially as a, as a trans dad, how important to you is it that people know that you carried
Freddy: your son? I’m definitely really open now about. Like being trans and giving birth to my kid. And I want that to be our normal and for it to be his normal.
And so generally I don’t feel like there’s any conflicts between my transness and you know, how my son was born and. The idea of being a dad and like, I just, and that’s probably because I, I think the idea of maternal instinct, it’s kind of, it’s just outdated, right? Like it’s I get it. But I think it’s, again, I think it’s just parental instinct.
I don’t understand why the idea of something like maternal instinct is still considered okay. When it’s not okay to assume that a woman’s purpose in life is to be a mother or that all women should want to have children. Like, for me, it’s just an extension of that. And the idea that. There’s something essential about being a woman that gives you this instinct, but I definitely do think that there is a parental instinct.
If you are a parent, and if you. Yeah. It doesn’t matter how your kid came into your life. If, if they your child, like you have that instinct.
Lotte Jeffs: I think most of us do, I have definitely kind of come across anecdotally some dads who are quite happy to just like laser only exist within the. The sort of societal stereotype of dad’s like, Oh, he’s trying his best.
He’s changed a few nappies. Like he he’s, you know, the idea that if you look after your child your babysitting or your, your daddy daycare, or like yeah. You should somehow be congratulated for just doing the simplest of parenting tasks. And I do know that some, some quite unreconstructed Seth’s heterosexual men in my personal experience have been quite happy to, to sort of hide behind those stereotypes and have that define them as a father.
But I can imagine a Stu and Freddy as dads like that must just be so
Freddy: frustrating to me. That’s just like an extension of toxic masculinity, but of course those people exist and it makes total sense. And, but I don’t understand again, like why these, like the conversation hasn’t really yet extended to fatherhood and Parenthood when it comes to discussions of toxic masculinity and sexism and yeah.
Fatherhood seems to be this one realm where it’s still okay to be completely. Just to fall back on stereotypes and be lazy and also to be rude in reverse, like about, you know, um, dads who awfully involved being sort of annoying and, um, a bit wet. And yeah,
Lotte Jeffs: you definitely get that in TV shows, don’t you?
That there’s sort of, I can’t remember what that parent’s was that’s it? Yeah, whether it’s single dad is just like some sort of mung bean eating, guardian
Freddy: reading hippie. I feel bad for those dads. Who do exist in that state? Because I just, I think it’s so sad that you’ve, you’ve bought this idea. And why would you know any different because no one’s ever telling them any different, and you’re sort of rewarded for this, for playing this doofus role.
And you’re missing out on so much so sad. I’m not trying to criticise them. I just feel like. They’re just missing out.
Lotte Jeffs: I just recently two nights ago through watching a random documentary about politics in Finland, on the BBC, I learned that in Finland, part of being allowed to transition illegally, legally become your agenda is that you have to be in fertile.
And if it doesn’t happen, naturally you’re sterilised. And then I learned that this legislation is changing next year, but it got me thinking about the, the impact that, that. That denial of, of rights for, for trans people to be biological parents must have on, on a generation of people. And I just wondered if that was something that you were, I mean, of course you are, but if you were aware of, and.
And what sorts of lasting impact do you think? Some, some legislation like that might, might have
Freddy: on our community, it’s just horrifying. It really is. Luckily mercifully it was ruled illegal. Then if that’s the right word, but you know, the European court of human rights ruled that it was a violation of human rights to require that.
And I think before that many, many countries in Europe had that rule, including Germany, Sweden, Denmark, although all the places you sort of think of as being. More progressive, you know, France did until very recently. I think Sweden only actually got rid of that rule a couple of years ago. Japan famously still has that rule in place.
And I think usually how it’s, how it’s enforced. You basically have to have proof of if you’re a trans man of having a hysterectomy. And I think I’m not sure how it works with trans women, but I know that hormone replacement therapy in trans women does have an impact on fertility, which is like a weirdly it’s sort of an inverted.
Example of like sexism in medicine is sort of interesting in the cultural content on that front. So, yeah. Um, it’s horrifying and God, it is mostly in the past. Um, and I, and I’m worried about the ways that it’s sort of exists in this country in an, in a less official way, because. I don’t think it happens anymore, but up until recently, trans men were told that they should have a hysterectomy after being on testosterone for five years because of an increased risk of cancer.
And it seems it’s been established that that’s actually a baseless claim and there’s no evidence for that, but I know I’ve had trans men come up to me and talk about morning, the ability to have bottles of children because they had a hysterectomy because they thought they were going to get cancer. And it’s just, yeah.
Um, let’s talk about, uh, and then, you know, you, when the UK government created a system of legal gender recognition, they were actually really proud of the fact that the GRA, which is what the law is called didn’t require sterilisation, um, which is odd. Now, when you think about like the lack of recognition for parents and actually how.
Because the government now is saying, well, we will recognise your agenda until, and unless you become a parent. So like, in my situation, I’m legally male. But when I became a dad, I reverted to female. As far as the law is concerned. I mean, it’s defacto, sterilisation. They’re basically saying you can be legally recognised unless you become a parent.
So you better not become a parent. Otherwise you get recognition taken away. So there’s all these. Bizarre ways, you know, as well as the really scary idea of like actually being forcibly sterilised, medically, there’s still these like more insidious barriers to, to becoming parents biologically. There’s just
Stu Oakley: so many hurdles isn’t there.
There’s just, it’s just, and I know that you’ve talked about it before. In the sense that the guests, that, you know, when you’ve had on pride and joy and things like that, like the extra effort and, and also the drive and courage that people go through as LGBTQ plus people to, to have children and that you have to really, really want it, I suppose.
And what about doing it on your own? How has that. Price has been for you. I mean, I’m, I’m conscious when I say doing it on your own, you probably have your, your real family, your chosen family, lots of support. But have you, have there been times where you felt lonely with it or that you kind of wish you had, you would doing it with a spouse or a partner?
Freddy: When I was pregnant with my son, I was more worried about exactly that and whether it would be enough and. You know, it was when it was all just theoretical. I thought, well, I’m not, is this okay? Is it going to be okay? But the actual reality of it has been much less stressful and has just sort of felt.
Like the right path for me, sort of from the start. Definitely. Definitely. It’s been really intense at times. You know, right now I don’t have another parent. It could help put my kids to bed. So he’s on the table over there, but. Yeah, I think it just suits my personality. I don’t know. Like, I’m kind of an introvert.
I, yeah, like I said, I live in this town with family and friends nearby. That’s like my kind of ideal level of interaction with adults. I really loved my son’s company. And um, yeah, I don’t know. It’s just, this just works for me and it’s weird. It’s sort of. I actually admire people who can maintain a relationship and learn how to parent at the same time.
I’m not sure I could do that. Do you
Stu Oakley: have any advice then for, or what would your advice be for, for trans men who are thinking about becoming biological parents? Oh,
Freddy: goodness. It’s hard as next. This is just sort of a personal thing, I suppose. Like, well, I just want people to know that they aren’t the first person to think of doing this and it doesn’t.
Invalidate, you know, you who you are. It can be like, for me, it was a quite a pragmatic decision. It felt like it still feels like, you know, you have the right to do this. It’s your body will have the same level of bodily autonomy, and no one else has a right to have an opinion about it. They’re all groups out there.
There’s lots of secret groups on Facebook. There’s people you can reach out to in real life, especially on Instagram, sharing their stories. And have
Stu Oakley: you thought much about as your son gets older, how you will talk to him about your gender, your sexuality, your identity, and this experience for you of, of how he came into the world?
Freddy: I mean, I, we talk about it now. I talk about it. It’s not something I ever want. Him to remember learning about, I remember hearing about that idea and as sort of donor conception context, that if a kid remembers being told that they were donor-conceived it’s too late. So we have books, we have this great book called what makes a baby, which is gender neutral and really beautiful.
And it’s sort of like a book that any family created in any way you could read and, and use to talk about their own situation. And we have books about with like trans characters and. I just, I don’t really have a plan because I anticipated being something that he’s aware of from the start. It would be great.
If there was more like things we could watch, I suppose I’m still a bit surprised by the lack of LGBTQ family representation in like films and kids’ TV. I’m hoping that’ll change maybe in the next. Five years or so, I don’t expect it to be super easy. I’m trying not to be negative about schools and that kind of thing.
One of the people I once interviewed, talked about having to basically become a school governor in order for the school to really like take seriously, the fact that they had different kinds of families attending in their community have noticed a change
Stu Oakley: in my daughter’s school already with the new legislation that came in in September.
With the fact that LGBTQ plus families are included within the relationship and families education. And there’s been a great, yeah, it’s been really positive actually. And I hope my school, not my school, my daughter’s school is not just isolated. Within that, and that there are lots of schools that are, that are also being really proactive in supporting this new legislation, because it’s really great.
And I really hope that it does make a difference to, for either for children like ours, who are. Children of LGBTQ plus parents or for, even for young LGBTQ plus children within school, just to feel included and to feel understood by their peers, because that’s where the real change is going to happen right from, from that next.
Well, finally then, I mean, we’ve mentioned it a few times throughout, but we are huge fans of pride and joy, and so insightful loved the episodes. What do you feel that you took away most from all the people that you spoke to during
Freddy: pride and joy? There was one episode where I spoke to, um, a mom called Anna and she has, I think she has four kids and it was really interesting to hear her talk about very openly and honestly, the struggles of being a parent of, of being a queer parent of a kid, especially when they go to school.
And it was. Her talking about having quite a bad experience sort of 15 years ago, and then having a, an okay experience and then having a really terrible experience quite recently, like shockingly recently at school in London, and then having a better experience most recently with her youngest and. Yeah, that kind of burst a little Navy sea bubble for me of just thinking like, well, everything’s fine now.
Surely, you know, kids go to school and there’s, everyone knows that there’s queer parents and actually like, probably not. So yeah, I found that really helpful. I spoke to a trans guy who had donated his eggs, who doesn’t plan on becoming a parent of any kind, but. Still was motivated to sort of help someone else’s on way by, by going through the process of deleting his eggs, which I just found so incredibly selfless and incredible.
And then I spoke to an amazing couple of wood, Ellie, Louie, who went and got a really awful of IVF of, of sort of, yeah. Having to fight for IVF treatment on the NHS and having Louise trans identity completely erased in that process and having to go through unnecessary medical procedures in order to sort of qualify for IVF as assists.
Couple that then evolved. Eventually they actually decided to go down a route of adoption and I just found their attitude towards creating family. Incredibly sort of humbling and inspiring. It just goes
Lotte Jeffs: to show how necessary and vital it is for us to be sharing our stories. And even in those moments of discomfort, where we wonder whether we’re saying too much or getting too personal or revealing, you know, a bit too much about ourselves and our families.
How important is that? To the extent we’re comfortable to do so that we continue to do that because I think people really need it. So thank you for everything that you’ve done and that you’ve shared with us and with your listeners on your podcast. It really means
Freddy: such,
Lotte Jeffs: okay. Now listen up class. It’s time for show and tell the moment when you’re hosting. With the most share something that we think that you simply have to know about Stu what have you brought to the session
today?
Stu Oakley: Oh, I love it. Yes. Mrs. Jeff’s. Yes. I have been banging the drum about the amazing Carrie and Lou to every single person that knows me.
If you haven’t seen it. It’s on CBeebies. It’s about two little dinosaurs who. Are just so funny. So heartwarming sing the cutest and funniest songs. And I finally got my sister into it this week as well with her new baby. It can be for all ages. I personally love sitting there and watching it. There are only about five minutes long, but the thing I love most about it is just every episode has just such a gorgeous meaning to it and a message to it with my favourite episode.
Being one that is called an ordinary day. And it’s about the character of Lou, literally, because she’s just this, she’s having a really shit day. She calls it her humdrum ordinary day, and she doesn’t quite understand why she’s having this ordinary day, but she’s just sitting there on a rock and she’s just having a day that we all have where she just feels shit, but she doesn’t understand why.
And this whole episode is teaching kids about, Hey, you don’t have to have a good day every single day. And it’s okay to feel rubbish, but then mixed in with that. She’s talking to a dinosaur who has a problem and keeps passing wind and then sings a song about being farty, but dinosaur, I mean, tick, tick, tick, tick.
Lotte Jeffs: So I’ve brought to the group today, somebody to follow on Instagram, if you aren’t already following her, she’s called Arlene and she is a midwife for the queer community. I’ve just realised she is based in New Zealand as well, which is sucks for us. But it’s great for Carey and live. We definitely need to have her on the show because I love everything that she stands for.
I came across her through an illustrator. I follow on Instagram called jazz MIDI, who does these incredible nude illustrations of real women. And she illustrated this resource that Arlene has put together for. Queer parents about the process of pregnancy and birth. And it’s not gendered, it’s not centred in heteronormativity and above all it’s inclusive.
So it’s like an uplifting celebration of queer pregnant bodies and the information and everything that it provides is, you know, incredible science base, um, medical knowledge, but just the way the language that’s used is, um, It’s just so queer friendly. I mean, it’s not even queer friendly. It just is outrageously queer.
And that’s such a novelty. And I, I would love to get my hands on a copy of her, um, of her book, a compassionate midwifery service dedicated to the LGBTQ plus community. So check her out on Instagram. She is our lean, which is a R L E N E dot M for mother P w R. Nice. Nice. And if you have anything that you want to share with us or that you yourself want to bring to class, or even if you just want to say hello to us, which we love, don’t be shy.
You can find us on social media. We are on both Twitter and Instagram at some families pod, or just send us an email, some families at story, hunter.co.uk, and find me, you can check out our website, which is w w
w.
Dot do you even need to say www dot anymore? It’s like so mad that we all still say it. And my mum reads out an email dress.
She always goes to me all lower case. Anyway, some families pod a.com and we’ll have another episode for you next week. Same time, same place. So if you liked what you heard today, then join us again next week and check out the rest of our series. Thank you for listening and goodbye.
Stu Oakley: Bye.
Lotte Jeffs: This episode was produced and edited by Hattie Moir.
Stu Oakley: Some families is a story unto a
production.