Nana Duncan and Rose Frimpong from the podcast TwoTwos, join Lotte and Stu for a podcast love in. Rose has a 9 year old daughter, who she conceived with a friend and Nana is starting to think about having children with her girlfriend. They discuss the stereotypical constructs of what it means to be a mum and what it means to be maternal, and why having children shouldn’t stop you from going OUT out.
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Full transcription below:
Rose: So I gave birth to her. So at the time when I got pregnant, I knew that I was queer, but I actually conceived her. This check-in if I liked guys,
Nana: Like when you, when you are queer, you just realise this there’s no such thing as normal. So you have to like make your own path.
Rose: And I came out as bisexual first because I felt like it was still, they will still give them the hope that I’m gonna. Have a child the way they want me to have a child in the future, we’re going to probably be the first
Nana: ones to have this kind of like
And it’s a shame that is so, you know, heteronormative that you don’t feel that
Nana: comfortable in that space. So you don’t feel like you belong.
Stu Oakley: Welcome welcome one and Oh two, some families, your LGBTQ plus parenting podcast. My name is Stu Oakley
Lotte Jeffs: and I’m Lotte Jeffs. Thank you for being here with us in your ears today.
Whatever time of day you happen to be listening to
Stu Oakley: us. And Lotte, Can I just ask let’s kick off the episode this week. I want to know has anything at all interesting happened to you this week in lockdown health.
Lotte Jeffs: I love that. That’s what has come to anything, anything
Stu Oakley: episode of EastEnders or, yeah,
Lotte Jeffs: we did watch this really annoying thing.
I don’t know if you’ve seen it called the stranger on Netflix and it has like the
Stu Oakley: strange, so
Stu Oakley: so
Lotte Jeffs: and different plot strands. And I was like, what? Yeah. Eddie from AB fab is murdered in a cake shop. Like where do we go from it? So other than watching copious amounts of television, I’ve, I’ve made money for, I made two new friends.
I’ve known. I’ve made friends with the gay boy. Who’s like a decade younger than me who lives opposite us because he asked the neighbourhood WhatsApp group. If anyone had a printer that he could print something out on. And I said, yes. And as soon as he came from the, my daughter, I was like, he’s a sister.
He can stay. And we had a nice chat and it turns out there’s a house of young days. Yeah. Over the road. So we’ve been having a few walks together and I’ve made a mum friend a very cool straight, but incredibly open-minded and interesting woman. I met on it. One of those parenting apps that you can like swipe through, like Tinder.
I think I spoke about it once before. Cause I was upset that I was going say, you’re a friend. Did
Stu Oakley: you actually find someone this time? I’ve
Lotte Jeffs: found one person. Yeah. But it’s nice. We go for walks and like, that’s nice. So I guess that’s my niece. What about you?
Stu Oakley: It’s a monotonous day after day of the same after the same, after the same, which is really cheery, isn’t it.
And how are you keeping sane? I’m not is, is the truth. So
Lotte Jeffs: can we tell listeners about the message you sent me saying I’m lying on my kitchen floor.
Stu Oakley: Yes. That was a low point. I just, I, yeah, my daughter’s home from school. Yeah. My husband’s at work and it was just too much. And I just decided to lay on the floor to which one of my other friends who I mentioned this to a couple of days later mentioned, well, you’re not too dramatic.
Are you so
Lotte Jeffs: down to the floor? Like, was it sort of like a.
Stu Oakley: Uh, drag race
Nana: was, it was a drag race drop.
Stu Oakley: Yeah, I am over it. And if anybody else is over it, I’m sure there’s so many, I’m here with you and. And thank you for everybody that pastes that miserable lives on Instagram. So because it makes us feel a bit better is problem. With some of my daughter painted a picture this week, I just hold it to, I was like trying to do some work and I said, Oh, just draw a picture.
And then she drew this picture and she just proudly picked it up and cheer psych it’s daddy drinking wine in the sun. It was like, wish. I mean, she knows me so well, but I was like, please just take me with a big glass of Jose sitting in the garden while they paddle around in a splash pool. Oh, enough.
Enough enough. Yes.
So in today’s episode, we have a little bit of a podcast loving. We have the amazing host of tutus podcast, Nana and Rose.
Rose: Yeah. Yay.
Lotte Jeffs: It’s a really brilliant podcast. It’s so funny. I’ve really found myself laughing out loud as I’ve been. Yeah. Listening in public transport. And also, so thank you for bringing such joy to our ears.
And I’ve also learned a lot. So Rose Rose you’ll introduce yourself in a bit, but you’ve got a nine-year-old daughter and none of them, what we understand you are starting to maybe think about going on a bit of a parenting journey yourself, maybe one day in the future. Not too distant for you.
Nana: Yeah. Yeah.
I was thinking probably like three years time. You must have three years, you know? Yeah. Really
Rose: three years. Wow. Okay.
Lotte Jeffs: I mean, um, get on it
Rose: as my advice. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Because
Stu Oakley: those years fly by sometimes and you never know, and you never know which way it’s going to go. We can’t
Nana: plan for kids gave you like, I mean, we can kind of
Rose: you’d be waiting for
Nana: ages, so yeah. Yeah.
Lotte Jeffs: I mean, yeah. You can plan absolutely everything often to the point that. You’re you can, you can plan. And then you just have to hand yourself over to the fertility gods.
Stu Oakley: I mean, jumping straight into an honour. I mean, what ways are you thinking about, or is there, uh, is there a particular journey that you want to go on?
Nana: Um, you know, I mean the cheapest way possible, I’m thinking, cause for the money anyway, I’m going
Rose: to have them until. They’re over
Nana: 18. Cause I know parenting does not stop at 18. So, um, yeah, I’ve been thinking about, we’ve actually got, I’ve got a friend, um, and we’ve got a sperm donor. We’ve actually got a sperm donor.
So when you know yeah,
Rose: he’s, he’s a
Nana: friend of my girlfriends and yeah, he’s lovely. And he’s willing to give us a spam. So I just love it. It’s six. So that’s the route we’re going down. That’s probably Turkey
Rose: based on situation. I am screaming.
Lotte Jeffs: Did you not know? This road
Nana: is brand new in
Lotte Jeffs: this family’s exclusive.
You had it here. Forgiveness. We’ll make sure you get it all in writing and get all the contracts and deal with the legal business and make sure, because you know, if you’re not married to your girlfriend and you use a donor and you just do it at home, you’re not both considered the legal parents. You have to either go through a licensed clinic or you have to be married.
Nana: Things to keep in mind is,
Stu Oakley: again, it’s just ripping that spontaneity and that there is no spontaneity in parenting in queer parenting. Yeah.
Lotte Jeffs: Tell us about yours. To she’s nine. Is that right? Yeah.
Rose: So she’s nine. She’ll be 10 in June and yeah, she’s just my little Amie and she’s so I gave birth to her.
So at the time when I got pregnant, I knew that I was queer, but I actually conceived her this check-in if I liked guys
Lotte Jeffs: efficient, efficient. Yeah. I’m good.
Rose: But I got pregnant, literally. That’s literally how it went and
Stu Oakley: yeah. I mean the spontaneity then on
Rose: the other hand, yeah, 100%. And I mean, at the time, I wasn’t sure if I. Was what was typically maternal? I wasn’t sure if this, obviously I started just started uni as well, so I wasn’t sure if I was what my mom was going to do if I dropped out of uni to have this child.
So yeah, there was a lot of decision making and in the end of this for like, I’m not sure if in the future, this is something that I will do. So I’m going to just grab it now and whatever happens happens, and it’s just been the most magical, the most beautiful journey ever. And I just wouldn’t change any part of it for the world labs.
I love her. I love the process. And it’s great. Oh, that’s
Stu Oakley: so lovely to hear. Oh, that’s giving me a bit of, you know, warmth inside. I’ve been learning about how
Lotte Jeffs: my kids have been
Stu Oakley: dead inside because of the kids driving me to insanity. And it’s actually nice to hear some of that. So again,
Rose: yes, there are moments where, you know, the home learning.
Nana: Do you
Lotte Jeffs: mind if we just. Go back to the, the guy that you got pregnant by and what your relationship was like with him and EF and how that has continued. And I’m just really interested, as you said, you were queer person and obviously you had this relationship with the guy, how that sort
Nana: of thing.
Rose: Yeah, so we weren’t in a relationship.
We were just friends, just friends at uni. Experiments him. And, but over the years he just kind of thought was he’s kind of tokenised. Like he’s got a lesbian baby mom. So, so it’s for him. It’s he’s just, Oh yeah. The mother of my child is a, is a lesbian, but over the years we haven’t really, cause now he’s, he’s married and he has his own family now.
And I guess he, the wife isn’t that comfortable with my sexuality. Even though it hasn’t got much to do with her. So it hasn’t really been around that much, but yeah. But prior to that, he just loved the fact that he had. Lesbian Beckman strange. It’s strange. Yeah. How
Stu Oakley: do you navigate that with, with your daughter?
Is it, does she spend time with him and his partner
Rose: will not read, so they used to, but now, now that he’s married and stuff like that, not really anymore that he does call her sometimes, but actually physical, like interaction and visits and stuff like that doesn’t really happen anymore. But she. At home or we live with my girlfriend as well.
And I just feel like she doesn’t really feel like anything’s missing that much, but she still has two people that love her. And, um, she definitely does take my girlfriend as her second parent as well. And she always me, sometimes she does speak about that. It’s always going to be her dad, but she does. She doesn’t really that much.
And I think it’s just because she has two people loving her and in school when she, um, she has friends who have maybe their mom and dad. Talking about their mum and dad, she feels like she still has two people to kind of match up to that. So she just doesn’t really, she hasn’t really expressed any sort of loss, which is great.
But then when she’s not older, yet when she’s older, she might do them. But for now we’re just taking it every step as it takes and whatever the question is that she does ask, you know, we’re always willing to like answer her truthfully and stuff like that.
Lotte Jeffs: Nice. And Nana, what’s your role? Have you babysat
Nana: when Rosie is like, maybe she’s back at work or come pick her up at school?
I like go pick her up. I see all the times that is that we’re a family now, since she’s, she’s not my niece, I’ve got, I’ve got like four nieces. So it’s just like, yeah, the barrier there, but like, she’s such a sweet kid, honestly. And I feel like I know that. The Rosie makes parenting look so easy that I’ve never, I’ve never come so easy.
And I say this all the time when she’s like, Oh, like once you’re here, you like the best quality, um, that I have another site. Um, really good parents
yeah. And I get, I get like maybe her in the beginning, not feeding them the tango, but she was like, she was born to do this and the thing, and that’s the thing is like you see people and you see them as they are like physically cause massive, massive and you might not, you may assume that we don’t want to carry you.
We went my mom’s spot. Yeah, I was talking about ideas. I mean,
Rose: I’ve been
Nana: gone from say, she’s going to work your job. Thank you.
Stu Oakley: Raise when you had, when you had her, you said you, you knew yourself that you were queer at that time, but when you out at that time,
Rose: when you had terms, just a few friends, not that many people.
And I think I didn’t have any queer friends at the time, so all my friends were straight and they just, they just thought it was a phase because others were also going through the phase. So yeah, they just pretty much was a phase. Um, but they did. They always recognised there was something a bit different.
I wasn’t into the same things they were into. And that’s like, literally when I told them that I was pregnant, they all four, it was like just a huge joke because they just want a guy, you want a guy, but they still, even though they still felt like it was a phase, they still just couldn’t get their heads around it.
Lotte Jeffs: And when you say you’ve never felt maternal, could you like dive into that a bit more? What you sort of meant by that?
Rose: For me, I think at the time I was looking at being maternal in a mall. Typical stereotypical kind of view of the way like society has told us a maternal person is like, and at the time, even though I knew I was queer, I never explored queerness that much.
I didn’t explore all the different things that we know now with, um, being non binary, being masculine, presenting, or anything like that. Didn’t really have the language. I just knew that I was queer. And at the time everything that they said, you know, if you’re a mom that you need to be like, just, just the qualities of what a mom is.
I just didn’t feel like I was that even though now I am a mom and I actually, I am that, but I just wasn’t that in the way that they presented on TV in the media, where I saw my family. And I also knew that I didn’t want to be with. Uh, man. So I just felt like, how could you be a mom, but I’m not with, not with a man, because these were all the examples that I saw around me.
I never ever saw at the time. I never had any examples of queer families around me at all. Not even one, not even in the media, I just haven’t seen it. And did you feel
Stu Oakley: similar Nana, when you, when you were that age, in the sense of, did you imagine that you’d ever one day want to have children? Was that even a question that you’d had in your, in your mind?
Nana: So I always wanted to be a parent. I think when I was 18, that’s when I was like, not my most broody. I’ve heard it’s weird. Like where it was like, when I smell,
Lotte Jeffs: that’s probably when your biological body clock was telling you, like, this is the optimum time to be doing sadly.
Nana: That’s like being the babies are just so cute.
Um, that was me at 18, but, um, but it was once when I, because I wasn’t out until I was about 20. So it was when I came out, it was just that pain. So how am I actually going to do this? Do you know what I’m saying? I just like, just, you have to be, see, like, to. Same-sex parents. Like, I just didn’t just didn’t see it.
And especially with like the, the black community, I didn’t see that. I did not see that. I didn’t see in person, I didn’t see it in the media. So I was just like, how am I going to do this? I’m even like coming out to my family. It’s just like, okay, well, all these dreams of you having kids out the window now.
And it’s like, well, no, that’s probably still going, working uterus. So I’m sure I can have a kid, but it was just like, it’s just trying to find your way around it because. Right. When you, when you are queer, you just realised this there’s no such thing as normal. So you have to like make your own path and you get there a lot quicker actually as a queer person.
Stu Oakley: Interesting. Isn’t it? I think that, that, that classic and it’s so classic in the, in the, the coming out stories of, you know, parents going well, I’m never going to be a grandparent or, Oh, you’ll never gonna have children. Now. I just, I’m curious to know when that will. Or if it has indeed, thank God already kind of died out because of, you know, there’s still not a lot of queer representation out there.
Um, FA in
Rose: for families,
Stu Oakley: for families there, isn’t still, I mean, the fact that, you know, we’ve been around for a year now, this podcast and we were the first ever LGBT parenting podcast, you know, there’s nothing on a prime time soap and very little, if any, in film. So just, you know, curious to when that, that classic, Oh, they’ll never have grandkids will die out.
Rose: I can listen. I think that’s, there’s still quite a way to go with that because even, um, some of my friends, the, even me actually, even though I already had, by the time I come out to my family, I already had Amie, but I do think that they still felt like she couldn’t have any more children. And I came out as bisexual first because I felt like it was still, they were still given the hope that I’m going to.
Have a child the way they want me to have a child in the future. And it just kind of soften the blow a little bit. I felt like maybe soften the blow, looked a little bit to them and some of my friends have done the same. They just come out as bisexual first. And it’s literally just because of having kids.
That’s the only reason why they come out as bisexual, if even if they’re not interesting. Yeah. Do you
Lotte Jeffs: think you’ll consider having a baby with your girlfriend? Oh
Rose: yeah. Yeah, we definitely, yeah, we definitely need to. Want to, and we’ve been, yeah, we’ve actually been looking at options and stuff like that.
Lotte Jeffs: that will be interesting to have kind of experienced just a quote unquote, natural pregnancy, and then the sort of. Work to delegate when you’re a same-sex couple. I wouldn’t ask you about going out and clubbing and partying because on your podcast, you talk about it a lot.
Stu Oakley: No, exactly. And not what they used to do in the olden days.
Lotte Jeffs: young people. But I really enjoyed listening to how you talk about nightlife. It made me feel very nostalgic for it because it’s been a long time as a parent and also obviously in lockdown, but I’m wanting to ask about why nightlife is important to you. Cause you talk about the sort of spaces and clubbing black gay nights in London.
And I wanted to know why that’s important. And also what advice you would give a parent who wants got so much of their identity from partying and going out. But when they become a parent. They feel like they have to stop all of that and lead a different kind of life. What, what you
Stu Oakley: would say to them? You
Nana: know what, it’s funny because this look down done overseas.
We haven’t been able to go out and we’ve missed the community so much because it’s
Rose: just a chance to be with your chosen family. Like your tribe. These are the people that you choose
Nana: to surround
Rose: yourself with. I like, it feels safe.
Nana: It feels like home. It feels like a place that you can go where. You’re just there to enjoy.
You’re just there to enjoy.
Rose: And for a lot of like queer people, Home life. Isn’t
Nana: always the best, you know what I’m saying? So it’s just a chance for them
Rose: to go out and just like, enjoy and have a good time. It’s so weird that parents
Nana: say that they don’t go out anymore because if it was me, I, you know, I had a chance to go out.
Rose: out. Like I just, I just,
Nana: I could see my, my sister and be like, listen, I need to go to, I need to make out. I don’t know, is it because you don’t want to leave your children
Lotte Jeffs: because you’ve got to wake up at 5:00 AM the next morning,
Nana: I’m going to have a problem with, because I’m not a morning person. So
Rose: I don’t know. The kids wake up at like four or five cooks in the morning. That’s just too early. I never experienced waking up early in the morning. She just slept all the time. I never experienced, I never experienced it
Stu Oakley: pulled into a sense of security with ours when they, when they first came to us for goods, you know, forget year and a half or so, they used to sleep like.
Angels. And, and my daughter used to lay in, so sometimes nine o’clock in the morning, it was heaven, but suddenly it’s just hit now. And it’s a good 4:35 AM every so often. It’s like, Oh, maybe
Rose: the second. Yeah, I do think it’s going to happen. I think for a second, I’m going to get ready, but three o’clock starts.
I just thought it’s going to happen. Just know that it’s gonna happen.
Lotte Jeffs: We still, you know, pretty locked down. We, you still able to kind of go out. As well as much as Nana
Rose: or I think I got more than that. Not
Lotte Jeffs: advice then to the parent, that just is like, Oh no, you know, I used to love all that, but not yet.
Rose: Um, so in the beginning, actually, I didn’t come out. So I didn’t really go out to, I mean, it was about four or five. Um, so yeah, for all those years, for the, unless it was someone’s like birthday dinner or something like that, I was at home.
Mum was not babysitting. Nobody was babysitting for me because all my friends were in their early twenties. Everybody was going out outside London and get just noticed. They’ve seen it for me. And to be honest with you, I didn’t really mind that much. I didn’t really feel the urge to want to go out. And it wasn’t until, um, I would say I was about 20, so I’m 30 now.
So it wasn’t until I was about 25. 24 and 25 that I felt like, okay, I want to go out again. And I want to see what’s out there when they meet new people. And we’re not 25 actually, when I met Nana actually. And I think that year I was going for it. And I just feel like you just have to go with how you feel inside.
As well for me, I just did it because for my mental health, really, I just was getting a bit sad at home all the time. So I just started going out and also mom, if she would like babysit now and she said, okay, yeah, she’s older now. So we’ll babysit. And I also have an auntie who is a nanny and also my.
Niece has the same birthday as, um, my daughter does. So they all just used to go to my auntie’s house and just play together. So I was a bit lucky there that they were willing to like do the babysitting when I was going out and stuff. So it was, but it was fine. It was literally just cause how I felt inside.
I don’t think anyone should feel forced to do something and if they can make it so they can go out and get some responsibility with babysitters, don’t send a child to anyone because you want to go out. Make sure. The responsible person that, you know, very, very well and yeah, just go out, like even you have to, sometimes I’ve been out and I know that I need to come back a bit early, but at least have been out for an hour or so.
Lotte Jeffs: by early. It’s important to like, remember that side of yourself, isn’t it. And that your identity steer and I have spoken about that. Like what you give up. You don’t have to give it up, but I think so often parents mums in particular, just like, well, I’ve just shut the door to that whole side of my personality and my sense of self that got so much joy from dancing, even listening to music.
Um, and I D I think I’m guilty of it, but I think it’s a shame. And I feel like when the world opens up again, I’d really like to be a bit more. Carpay DM in my attitude
Stu Oakley: to my social life. Yeah. Soon before you know, it you’ll be taking it with you.
Rose: Oh God. She’s not allowed until she’s 40.
Stu Oakley: So moving away from the kind of going out scene, I just kind of wants to follow up on that and ask about your, your views on, I suppose, the parenting community. And have you found. You know yourself in a, in a community that, that embraces Parenthood. And have you got many friends within that space? I suppose Rose
Rose: not really.
I mean, I’ve seen, I do find whenever I see a queer parent on Instagram, for example, I do. Just follow them wherever I am going to speak to them or not. I just follow them because, but in regards to like anyone that I know in person, um, no, I’m definitely the only one out of my, or like our friends who was like a queer parent.
And so, yeah, it’s just really small. That’s all. When I heard about this podcast, I was thinking, Oh, okay, this is a platform that I’d never seen anything like it before. And I, it was really, really cool. And actually after I did follow you guys, I did it. I see others from you guys as well. So that was cool.
That was quite cool. I wish there was like a community with a WhatsApp group or something. Yeah. Did you
Lotte Jeffs: ever go to any sort of parenting groups and mother and baby groups and stuff? When you, you had a. Tiny baby.
Rose: Yeah, I did. And I did an after a short amount of time, I just stopped going just because it was just very CIS hat, you know?
Yeah. Just, I just didn’t really. Connect, you know, and it was just a lot of the language is very like hetero language and stuff like that. By now I knew that I was queer. I just had stopped going, stopped going. We miss out. Yeah. Yeah. It’s sad. I feel like
Nana: we’re going to probably be the first ones to have this kind of like community of, I don’t know if it all spaces because I don’t, I don’t
Rose: see it.
I haven’t, I haven’t seen it in actual community. And it’s a shame that is so, you know, heteronormative that you don’t feel. That comfortable in that space. So you don’t feel like you belong in the news this week? About there was a hospital in London. I forgot what hospital is that they now are going to have like a gender non-conformance.
Lotte Jeffs: I think it’s a hospital that the midwife services there are just making the language that they use around pregnancy and birth. They’re creating like a lexicon specifically for queer and non binary and trans people. So that they’re tailoring the language that they use to the identity of the person.
So if somebody is transplant, not going to talk about breasts, they’re going to talk about chest and like subtle things like that. But the newspaper, like obviously ran it as this fix of sensational story saying that what, you know, like the tone is like, whatever next. Whereas actually, if you really read into what the story is, it’s like a very small, good thing for trans people.
Yeah. Just let them know have it, like it’s not taking anything away from you as a success. Heterosexual person, you don’t need to be defensive or worry. Nobody’s taking anything from you. We’re just giving someone something that they
Nana: need. It’s just to
Rose: make everything
Nana: like inclusive and like, to make people feel, you know, safe and to make people feel comfortable.
Rose: Like why shouldn’t everyone have that?
Nana: Especially like, as a pregnant person, the amount of things that was going on in your mind, you don’t want to have. The think about if somebody’s going to use the wrong language or mis-gender you, whatever, like exactly. Just create a safe environment for people. Yeah.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah. Somethings she’s talks a lot about as well as do you like, just talking about feeling alienated from Harrington groups, just because of the language being like always mother and baby mother and child and even things like, yeah. Books about how to feed your child aimed at mums as though dads just don’t
Stu Oakley: have children.
Yeah. It’s not about taking away motherhood and it’s not about taking away the idea of mums, but it’s just using that. That’s such, I mean, parent is such an inclusive word. It’s so simple and it’s so offensive to so many people just use parent more, just we are parents and that just covers off so many different things.
Lotte Jeffs: interesting to talk about identity and that’s something that I’ve been really interested in and sort of learn a lot from as well from listening to you to your show is sort of navigating in sectionally in your identity. And then I was wondering in that, like, where. Women where mother, like all of those different identities, how they will like spinning around
Stu Oakley: for you
Rose: all the time.
For me, I do think that some of our guests come on and they say like black is first it’s about, for me personally, I think been coexists like equally I’m queer my mom, I’m black. And I just think that they all just co-exist together. I don’t think I can rank it in any sort of hierarchy to say one is more important than the other, because there are quite a few black people that do say that their blackness comes first.
And I think that that comes from. How they’ve grown up in the home, especially with a lot of African or Caribbean parents, not really being quite homophobic basically. And it’s just like being queer is not part of being black. I think. Yeah. That’s still something that people work on and stuff, but for me anyway, I think he just all coexist.
Together and even being a mum as well, kind of going back to the language some, some time in the beginning, I felt so uncomfortable and called a mom. Like if it was a bit more inclusive and people just call me a parent and mommy come come. Sometimes even now when people come in by my still feels a bit like, could you remind me?
Don’t know me. You don’t know what my pronouns are. I just want, you know, so yeah, just to go back to that point as well. That’s yes. I would say our parents and being queer and being a black person would in one. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I’d have to agree. I think that some, some people do say black just because
Nana: it’s what you can see for me.
Rose: everything’s a part of me is part of my identity and it’s all equal. That’s what makes me every single thing, not I’m queer. I’m a woman. I’m black, all those things make me, so I can’t put it. One
Nana: above the other. It doesn’t. So that’s why sometimes it’s a bit annoying
Rose: when, you know, like we are talking about certain things and people feel like, okay, you got to drop the queerness right now because we’re talking about, but it’s not
Nana: all of it because all the monsters, you know, you can’t,
Rose: I can’t just let go of, you know, one part of my identity because
Nana: it doesn’t even make sense.
Um, and I
Lotte Jeffs: suppose it’s navigating spaces that are. Specifically for like one type of person. It’s just, as you say, it’s being in those spaces as your, your full self and not feeling like you have to be confined by what. That works.
Rose: It’s interesting. Cause like even being a parent, I don’t feel like I know we’re in the club, but I’ve been in the club is not our, you know, but it was going to be talking about, Oh, well your school runs today and stuff like that, but you know, but I still feel like when I’m in a black queer space, my, I have to put my parents into the side a little bit just because of some of the, because I’m asking expensive presents into some of the more stereotypes in our community, still about masculine presenting.
Women like carrying a child or being a mom and stuff like that, is there sometimes it’s still a bit taboo in our community. And so I do feel like sometimes to put it on a backbone. So, so sometimes it’s even like issues that we’re trying to exist all as one person. Yeah. Quite recently, there were some massive 10% in people.
Speaking about parenting and stuff like that. And it was just like, no. And then some of the things
Nana: that they were saying, Oh, I couldn’t carry a child. You know, that’s that’s for the fem to do. And it’s just like,
Rose: Oh wait,
Nana: like, this is
Rose: you like literally putting yourselves in a book,
Lotte Jeffs: Oh, degeneration of
Stu Oakley: interest.
Nana: Right. They’re our age. Um, but they just, I do find with the older generation as well, if they’re a bit more stiff, .
Rose: Yeah, they are a bit more stiff. It’s very much, you know, gender roles,
Stu Oakley: it’s so interesting how those labels come into. Parenting as well. Like we have all those labels within the queer community, their labels within themselves.
And like you say, they’re in a box, that’s that that’s their box and they can’t leave it, whereas you can be more free than that.
Rose: absolutely. And that’s why I said I’m not going to lie when I raised my kids is I’m not really going to put the gender
Nana: thing on them. They’re just going to be kids. You know how like, you know, if you’re, if you’re a boy, you, we put blue on you and if you’re a girl, you put all of that.
Rose: Stuff’s good out the window. You know, certain tours for boys and girls, all of that stuff is just out the window. Like gender is not going to matter in
Nana: my house.
Stu Oakley: You say that though, because I found this really interesting as a parent is I was completely on the same view of you. And before we got the kids, I’d be like, you know, don’t be gender specific about things.
And I don’t want to be it’s. It’s so ingrained in our society and media and culture. That it just seeps in, even to the fact where I feel very proud of my family being very open and free with it when it comes to gender. But, you know, I found my daughter telling my son that he couldn’t do something because he is a boy and that is a girl’s cake and he can’t do this because it’s there.
And she’s got that from school. She’s got that from outside the house. Cause it is so in baked into society,
Rose: even though my daughter doesn’t like pink, I find myself buying her pink stuff. And it’s just, it’s just, I always say that when the first things we’re socialised about, even before we’re born is gender is always going to be agenda.
You know, everyone gives the gender reveals and the pinks and the blues, and I’m even here and you already socialised in me. So sometimes I find myself doing it too. Then I, Oh, I might buy her a dress up like, Oh, why didn’t you just wear a dress too? Well, mom used to do to me and I have to remember, hold on.
I didn’t like it when mom did this, what am I doing? And he stopped. It’s also
Stu Oakley: what’s available out there. My son, especially, he loves typically things are typically associated with females. And so like the moment he’s really upset because he really wants a pair of bell pants. But not bell knickers because they’re not designed for boys and in their design.
So I’d need to find a pair of pants, boy, pants to keep his little bits in that has bell on for him, but that doesn’t exist. And it’s the same with pull up pants. Like he, like his sister had had her princess pull-ups and he was obsessed with them and he really wanted them. What is the only thing available in the shops?
Lotte Jeffs: you I’m seeing like a CoLab, some families times.
tend to know the specific pull-ups.
Nana: That would be great. Oh, my token for like all this stuff happening and then I have a child and then things are kind of like easier for me as a parent. When it comes to this stuff, say
Stu Oakley: attempt to your daughter. Right. So how do you, how do you know, how do you discuss or, you know, how does she know that you identify as queer?
Is that something you’ve discussed with her or is she, yeah. How open is she to, to,
Rose: to that? So I only actually told her. Maybe even the first lock down. Yeah. That’s when I actually told her, but before that she knew, but she just didn’t, she just wasn’t aware of any of the labels. So she always knew that a woman could beat a woman.
A man could be a man or in what could choose to be whoever they want to be with, but she just didn’t know what the labels were. So I did tell her the label was because some of her friends they’re getting older now and they were, I guess their parents have told them, Oh, you know, Amy’s, mommy’s LSB. And so I guess the kids have come to ask her, Oh, you should, I’m a lesbian what’s I lesbian.
So then she’s now. Asking me, we went to the black lives matter March and we had, um, black LGBT lives matter on there. She was asking those questions. What does this mean? Why did you put LGBT on there? And I told her, um, I just explained to her, she said, yeah, yeah, everybody likes not everyone likes. We mean, some people do some people don’t and I said, Oh, that’s, that’s part of the LGBT community.
And that’s what a lesbian is. So I’m a lesbian and she, she didn’t like the fact that there. Was a label. Cause she felt like it made it seem like it wasn’t normal. And she was just, she was, she was, uh, eight. She wasn’t nine years. She was six. She was eight. And she understood that. And she was just saying, Oh, does that mean like, maybe some people don’t like you, is that why you had it on the board?
And I said, no, we’re just going out there. Send to remember to like us, that’s all really. And yeah. So since then she does ask questions sometimes. And again, obviously she’s aware of my relationship with my girlfriend and stuff like that. And she was also has my brother who has a girlfriend as well. He’s just, just seeing the two different types of relationships and the variety that there is.
So she just saw it from example, but now she’s aware that there are labels and yeah. She’s still getting ahead around the fact that we have to use labels, but she knows that it’s there now. So that’s good. And
Lotte Jeffs: Nana, would you, if you were to ask, is this little girl to describe her? How do you think she described her mom?
And how do you think she’d described her family?
Nana: What it’s because, um, I realise it’s very funny. She, the way she is, it’s just like, it’s just mommy. You know what I mean? It’s just like, it’s because it’s so normal to her. Like, this is all, this is like, all, this is all she is. He
Rose: knows, you know what I mean?
Like you, whether you’ve been like this, she was, yeah. She was a little woman.
Nana: Everything is so normal to her. So she’s just like, this is
Rose: mommy. Even like.
Nana: Obviously when I came along five years ago, it was, there was
Rose: two, there was no
Nana: confusion. It was just like, okay, it’s just, it’s just easy for her to accept people.
Rose: You know, that look. Like, you know, me or that look just, just like any, anyone I’m just easy
Nana: for her to accept it. It’s just, she just, she’s just a very happy child. And I think she’s very like comfortable and secure in the family, even having to get around and not relationship. Like, she’s just like, she’s just a happy child.
Like he doesn’t know any different,
Rose: so it doesn’t make a difference
Nana: to her.
Stu Oakley: So I think that brings us on to, we have a segment on the show. Called show and tell is new to the season, but it’s where we ask our guests to bring something to the classroom. So you’re here with Mr. Oakley and miss Jeff’s right now, bring something to the classroom that positively represents the LGBTQ plus.
Either families or community, or it doesn’t even
Lotte Jeffs: positively Steve, because sometimes we’ve bought things that are just,
Stu Oakley: we like to name and shame. You said, if you want to bring something to name and shame, feel free to do it as well. But can I ask you none of them Rose, what have you bought to class today?
Nana: I have bought an organization called just like us and it’s a charity for young people and it’s amazing because basically they just like go to schools and they educate and inform people. And it’s something that, you know, I didn’t have when I was growing up and I felt very, very lost. As a young person, as a young queer person in school, I felt lost.
I didn’t, you know, I didn’t even talk about it. I remember there was a time where I was, I had a mentor and I, um, every week I’d like to psych myself up to say, Oh, I’m queer
Rose: every week. I, the
Nana: words just wouldn’t leave my mouth. So I just feel like if I had like an orchestra organization, just like us things would have been like, I would’ve felt more comfortable.
I would have felt myself. So it’s, it’s a really good one is a good organization. And we’ve got good
Stu Oakley: to know about. Yeah, we’ll make sure we’ll put a, we’ll put a link in the show notes
Rose: as well. Oh, so what am I going to be? I will forget TV show and I’m going to, I don’t have a hot mic. Bring that to class.
Don’t we need age appropriate because I was
Lotte Jeffs: going to bring a TV show and I’m wondering if it’s the same
Rose: thing. Okay. So I’m going to bring the cabins. Okay. It’s a dating show. Just, I’ve never seen so many queer people at a dating show before. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I’ve heard this the first time, the first episode.
So basically the concept of program is they get two people in the cabin and they just get to know each other over a couple of days. And, but they always choose whether they want to stay another night or not. I thought it was going to be like a love Island where it wasn’t. Yeah. But it was just the queer representation on there that the first episode two women, they paired up two women and they actually still in a relationship or given a spoiler.
And I think there might be one of the only ones out the whole show.
Lotte Jeffs: I’m literally like, I’m going to go last point and watch this. As soon as
Rose: you finish, I’ve watched all the episodes. So, you know, okay, this is the
Lotte Jeffs: down show that I need in my life. I wanted to bring is talking about. The presentation of lesbian mums on TV. I don’t know if anybody’s seen, we are who we are on BBC.
Absolutely beautiful. Done by a director directed call me by your name and it’s this incredibly beautiful. So yeah. Platonic love story between these two queer teenagers and a masculine presenting girl, gay girl nannies, you know? Yeah. Isn’t
Nana: it amazing.
Lotte Jeffs: Tell me like the lesbian moms in this and their relationship with the boy.
No, I’m saying it
Nana: all. It’s so key. Isn’t
Rose: it? Well, he is an off key boy, isn’t he? Yeah. And I was trying to understand like, if there was something going on
Nana: with him, but I didn’t really get so interesting.
Lotte Jeffs: Like the, you will, you don’t see lesbian moms on TV enough. And then when you do, it’s like, they’re really odd.
There’s no two ways about it. Like they’re odd with each other. The two women and their odd with best son. And it’s just weird. So I loved the show, but I was like, can I just see some nice normal gay mums please on TV? So that’s what I wanted to bring to the group as a talking point of like, yeah. Anyone got any other recommendations, any listeners of examples where there’s been gay moms or gay dads on a show where it’s not been a plotline?
Oh, it’s education that had lesbian moms
Rose: actually. Yeah, I honestly, I wanted some background story. I want us to know how they got together. I know we didn’t get it.
Nana: But we’re
Lotte Jeffs: also thirsty. Aren’t we, we want the spinoff that before you go, we’re going to do a funny, quick thing with you because we’re going to steal it from you or show of snuck Mary, a voice.
Stu Oakley: Can I do hair and theme it?
Lotte Jeffs: Do, do you want to read out off
Stu Oakley: there? Go on then. Right. Okay. Why don’t I put this one to Nana? So Nana, would you, so you’ve got one to Sykes. Jodie foster and Jada Pinkett Smith. Oh,
Nana: okay. When the Sykes my, I mean like has Mary, if we’re going to go for that, that has to be my parent because, and this LOLs come on, like, I’ll be laughing every
Nana: Jayda, Pinkett Smith kiss, like, because. Her parents and she’s kind of let her
Rose: kids like be who they wanted to be. And that was amazing. I just fought. That’s the, that’s the way that I want to raise my kids.
Nana: And yeah. I don’t know much about Tony. Really. I just know her in the films. I don’t know much about her, but she has to keep happening.
So you avoiding her? Yeah, I’m avoiding her, but she has a cute family. I just don’t know much
Rose: about her. Did you always be the same ruse? No. I think her Marine, um, Jayda. I think, um, even though she has, you know, Hey, entanglements,
I think we can get around that. And I. But, and I would kiss Jodie foster and I wouldn’t afford to bond. Yeah. Wonderful me. I mean, she’s up, I do love to have a laugh. I try not to have love all the time.
Lotte Jeffs: Here’s another three for you that not all queer parents, but uh, anyway guys, this is a sign of like how few there are in the public.
So Chrissy Tiegen, obviously not gay. Cynthia Nixon. Massively gay and Beyonce.
Stu Oakley: Oh,
Nana: this is the next sex and see the lawyer and all your babe. Oh, okay. I’m not going to be honest.
Because I like, I like her, like I’ve seen her like her speak and stuff, like videos of her speaking. I think she’s, yeah. She’s amazing. She’s smart. She’s talented. I just love her.
Rose: I’m saying it like, I want to
Nana: marry her instead. Um, um, yes, he was the last one to get off and Chrissy Tiegen. Yeah, Chrissy Tiegen.
Um, I don’t know. I didn’t know what she
Rose: does. You know, Chrissy Tiegen. Yeah.
Stu Oakley: Reliever. I mean, I think you’re going to have your hands full with Beyonce as a wife. I think that was a
Rose: 100%. What about you Rose? I am going to marry you Chrissy. I just think she, I know I just had one the last two months, like drinks one too much. I feel like Chrissy wouldn’t be joking, but she’d still be funny.
And she does really well or actually have a cookbook. So they are great staff and I am going to kiss Beyonce. But I think, you know, we can play the blue Ivy and other kids. Nice. Yeah. Um, I’m going to avoid, he was the last person again. Cynthia Nixon. Fair enough. Yes. Okay. Ultimately, you know, Oh, well, thank
Stu Oakley: you so, so much you two for joining us.
Rose: Thanks for having us.
Stu Oakley: you, Nana. Thank you. Rose to two. Wonderful. If you fancy inactive with us, you can DM us on Instagram or Twitter at some families pod, or you can email firstname.lastname@example.org UK,
Lotte Jeffs: or you could visit our website, some families, pod.com and big news on our website. You will find out how you can join us.
Some families’ community, sign up for our newsletter, where we will be providing you with all the leaders, news, BS opinions, and hopefully some special offers, um, in your inbox on a regular basis. So head over to our website, some families put.com. To sign up and join us on our queer parenting journey.
Stu Oakley: Thank you for listening. And we hope that you enjoyed this episode. We’ll be back next week with another one. And so until then it is goodbye.
Lotte Jeffs: Goodbye. This episode was produced and edited by Hattie Moir.
Stu Oakley: Some families is a StoryHunter production.