This week in Some Families, Lotte and Stu are joined by Zoey and Kelly, from ‘Our Transitional Life’. They have been married for nearly 12 years and have two children. Zoey came out as transgender on New Years Eve 2019 and since they have started their blog, ‘Our Transitional Life’. They discuss how they approached and communicated it to their children. How the roles have and haven’t changed and what labels mean within a family dynamic.
Full transcription below.
Zoey: The woman and a pansexual in a lesbian relationship. That’s true. So sometimes they call, um, Kelly MK and I’m MZ. Prejudice. Isn’t something you’re born with. It’s something you learn or you’re taught. So
The kids, especially the younger ones are so open-minded. Yes, they’re inquisitive, but they’re never judgmental about anything.
Some families have a Mama Zo on a Mama Kel and two kids and a smelly dog.
Lotte: Hello and welcome to some families. I’m Lotte Jeffs
Stu: And I’m Stu Oakley.
Lotte: Hello hello. How are you Stu?
Stu: I’m doing very, very well. So Lottie and myself are recording this episode again from home due to COVID separate homes. Okay. Despite rumors, I don’t live together in a giant. Family merged queer house share scenario.
Lotte: Yeah. So we’re really looking forward to this episode because this week we are talking to Zoey and her partner, Kelly, who make up our transitional life.
They’ve been married for 12 years and last new year’s Eve. Zoey came out as transgender.
Stu: They have two gorgeous children, George and Molly. And if any of you have ever watched any of the videos on social you’ll know that the children are role models within themselves. So we are going to talk to them.
Lotte: And find out all about their story and what it’s like coming out to your kids as trans and going from being a dad to a mum.
Stu: Welcome Kelly and Zoey.
Kelly: Thank you for having us.
Stu: Shame. We couldn’t meet. And the, instead we’re speaking via, a video conference, but alas. Those are the times that we’re in. So tell us, tell us in a nutshell about your family,
Zoey: well, we’re Kelly and Zoe, we’ve been married for 11 and two-thirds years.
Ish. Um, we have two children, George and Molly. George is 10. Molly is nine and, um, a big furry labradoodle called Ziggy. And we live in Cardiff, South Wales.
Stu: And Zoe. So just over a year ago, you came out as a transgender female.
Zoey: Yes. New year’s Eve 2018, 19. I sat down with Kelly and she approached me with the Prosecco and we had a conversation.
Kelly: It wasn’t a very long conversation. No,
it was just the fact it was yeah. To the point.
Yeah. And then it was new year’s even we have to talk about it in the following days. I
Zoey: suppose. Yeah. But days, weeks, months of chatting up until two, three, four o’clock in the morning,
Lotte: how long did it, it take you to get to the point of realizing that you were transgender I’m imagining that was something that kind of, you had been thinking about for a very long time, but maybe it was only really through talking about it with Kelly, that it started to really solidify for you.
Zoey: I’ve always been at odds with. A lot of feelings in myself and my life, um, from a very early age, from, uh, from around about eight ish, but never truly understood the world and diversity of genders and stuff. Um, I had a lot of feelings where I thought I should have been a woman. I always wanted to be a woman through my teens and my twenties.
And then a few years back, I went back to university. And I was no longer working full time. So I had a lot more thinking time to myself. Um, a lot of walking to university and thinking about things. And, um, I guess I just took more time to reevaluate who I felt I was. And I did a lot of research online, looked into a lot of different things and, and as the research progressed, it kind of led me down this path.
Towards being transgender. And the more I read about that, the more stories that I read, the more I just related so much. And I was like, this, this is, this explains so many of my feelings in the past, and this is who I am and for a good, a good few months to about a year or so, I think I kept it from you and.
Kelly: You were really unwell as well. Like she wasn’t eating properly. She was doing strange things that just were out out of character. Um, and we were really worried. I thought she was going to die. To be honest, I said, I know I did like a lot of weight in a really short time. Um, I was, I remember chatting to everyone else and thinking that, Oh, she’s got an eating disorder.
She’s got an eating disorder, blah, blah, blah. And for really focusing on that and all those elements to do with you, your relationship with food and calling like charities like mine to get advice, and then saying that we can’t do much, but you know, it’s all about control. And when you look back, it makes sense of
Zoey: everything because there was so much that I was keeping to myself about what I wanted to change about myself.
Physically, um, and hormonally and emotionally, I suppose. Um, that was the only real thing that I had any control over was what I was eating. Just stopped most of the time. Well,
Lotte: I’m so happy for you that you were able to be so honest and open and has such a supportive partner. And supportive kids. It must’ve felt like such a relief to just be open and honest and be able to claim that support that you deserved rather than keeping it all to yourself.
And it manifesting is eating disorders and that kind of thing. So I’m so, so happy for you that that was your experience. Um, I just wanted to ask you how. It’s changed you as a parent, you’ve gone from being a dad to a mum, and that’s quite a unique experience
Zoey: for me. I have opened up a lot more emotionally and although I think my parents’ role hasn’t really changed that much.
You know, Kelly’s still does most of the work and I just lays about, I’m just more of a diva now to behonest, Um,
Kelly: Who took the bins out tonight?
Zoey: Took one out.
Kelly: I’m not touching that one, but yeah,
Zoey: I think, um, um, a lot more embracing of my emotions now. So I’m not in the past. I didn’t understand my emotions as much. And I thought maybe my emotions was a sign of weakness. So I would often push that away from myself and push the kids away at times when there was like hugs and things like that.
Like I said, I guess I’ve embraced that a lot more now. And I’m. More more than willing to get the kids hugs and just snuggle up on the sofa and more attentive when you know, they hurt themselves. And
Lotte: do you think that’s because you’re happier in yourself as an individual, or do you think it’s that you’re now.
Feeling that you’re less burdened by expectations of what a man or a dad should do and what a mum or, and a woman should do, or is it individualized?
Zoey: I think, I think it’s a combination of a lot of things. I’m not putting that pressure on myself anymore emotionally, because I haven’t got that burden. I haven’t, I’m not so introverted anymore.
And I have been on hormones now for about nine months or so. So that’s affected my, my balance of hormones and my emotions as well. So I’m more in tune with that. At least they feel that way. Yeah. So that’s, I think a combination of all those different things is.
Kelly: Yeah. Pre you coming out there. Even when you came out, you were really frustrated with the fact that you felt you couldn’t cry.
Like actually physically there were no tears and then your hormones, like it’s the complete opposite now. That’s all that is out. Isn’t it is out. Yeah.
Zoey: Yeah. I think it’s just, like I said, the combination, all those different things, it’s all added up to me being more happy within myself and being more comfortable with my emotion.
Lotte: Lovely to hear because so many people don’t get to have that experience of feeling so confident in themselves. And like Lottie said before, have such an amazing family around you that have just supported you and just live with the mum that they now have. I mean, and for Kelly for you, how did you kind of approach it?
Kelly: And we talked about this yesterday. Well, the heart of the difficult thing was, was, um, sharing the word moms like sharing that. Initially I struggled with it. Like I’m not, I’m not gonna lie. I’ll be completely honest. I was like, that’s, that’s my. Title. That’s my name. There was like a, probably a couple of weeks where I was just like, Oh, this is hard.
This is different.
Lotte: What did, what did the children call each of you then? Mom,
Zoey: mommy, cow and mama
zoo.
Kelly: Um, it’s, it’s like that it’s just like life to us now. Like, I can’t remember a different time, but I do obviously still remember my resistance to it a little bit, because it felt like my domain, I suppose.
Lotte: That’s so interesting. And Kelly, you almost. Became a lesbian mum then quite suddenly, I guess, um, apologies if I’ve misrepresented you by saying lesbian and please do correct me because perhaps that’s not how you identify at all, but to the outside world, you know, you’re an LGBT family and that kind of put in an identity on you, which perhaps maybe you identify differently, please.
Enlightened me
Kelly: when anyone asked them, like, I’m just human. Like, I, I mean, I did a video before about being pansexual because I’d always thought I was bisexual, but then obviously I kind of believe that you fall in love with some of who they are on the inside. I don’t think it comes down to physical, obviously you’d want the connection in that vibe, which we’ve always had.
Like, I’ve always used to describe pre coming out as a woman in a man’s body. Yeah. For like, yeah, like the whole of our marriage. Yeah, because of there’s certain parts of you just, I don’t, I can’t describe it. I don’t know what it is. There’s that was just my description and I was right. It doesn’t even
Lotte: know, not show us the strength of your relationship that you were able to read Sophie that well, to have that connection, you just.
Do you, you just knew. I think it was
Zoey: like a subconscious thing
Kelly: possibly, but I was still shocked when I, when she told me I was still that shock was still there. So that conflicted with everything about me. If that makes sense.
Zoey: Yeah. It’s not a small change. It’s not like me coming home and having a different hair color or something it’s going to
Kelly: no, but you did come home after waxing everywhere.
The one day. That was a bit of a shock.
Lotte: Um, but sorry, Kelly, just to go back to that last question. So, do you identify as lesbian moms now? Or is it something different?
Kelly: I
Stu: don’t overthink that, but I think
Kelly: we that’s what we would be seen as, but I still suggest I’d still say about myself. I’m pansexual, I think.
Um, but you, you identify as lesbian and we are a lesbian couple, I guess
we don’t really
talk about
Zoey: A transgender women and a pan sexual in a lesbian relationship. Yeah, that’s
Lotte: true. That makes total sense. To me
Kelly: just sounds really mythical.
Lotte: It does, but she’s a unicorn really? Yeah.
Kelly: I’m into it. So yeah, I don’t, I, yeah, I think that’s that side of it.
I mean, when we go out and stuff, we’ve got the element of there’s two women holding hands, but also that you’re trans and that. Sometimes that, you know, it draws attention. It
Zoey: does. Yeah. And that was one of the reasons that I moved on to go in with the red hair was because there was no way I wasn’t going to stand out.
So I thought if I’m going to stand out, then I ain’t going to stand out.
Kelly: Yeah.
Lotte: I love that. Embrace it. So tell us about the children then. So, so when you came out, Sophie, How did the both of you plan to discuss that with the children? And also just say, you know, we are coming to this as well from a point of view that we may have someone listening who was in a situation that you were in surgery and is thinking about coming out to their family and starting their own transition.
So how did you approach it with them?
Kelly: She didn’t
Stu: know. Well, before
Zoey: I spoke to Kelly, well, I just kind of tried Hinton it. Be in trends for a little while, but really, really in backwards ways. So after well approaching when, when, uh, it was new year’s Eve, I was terrified because I’d read so many horror stories and seen so many videos where people had come out and lost their partners, lost their family, their friends, their jobs, jobs.
There were points in the couple of years that I was thinking about how to approach things where. I was like, would it be easier for everyone if I just. Kept this to myself and didn’t, didn’t follow it through, didn’t speak to anyone and just kept it locked away. Like I have done for years. Um, because then I wouldn’t run the risk of losing anyone.
And I think after coming out to Kelly and then a couple of days, well, not even a week, really, a few days really just. Chatting and being so open about everything. I thought everyone just had to know one after the other, when we spoke to the kids, it was like, well, it was you speaking. It was
Kelly: Whoa. You kind
of, I kind of approached it in.
And at the time, obviously I was using words like he and daddy, because we hadn’t come to change in pronouns. At that point, it was all very fresh. It was like probably within a week. I just,
Zoey: yeah, the dad, the man.
Kelly: Yeah. But we, we read a lot of books to them anyway, about gender identity and kind of, Molly’s very passionate about, you know, women and kind of equal rights and all that stuff.
So they, they had that awareness of stuff already, but we just bought a couple more books. And sat down and I remember just saying to them, how would you feel if daddy dressed like this a little bit more? And they were just like, whatever, like that, obviously didn’t say that. But I think I remember saying we must have said.
And how would you feel if she called herself by a different name and she was referred to she instead of handle all this stuff. And George just said, um, as long as she’s happy, it doesn’t matter. That was his reply. Yeah, it was quite like, but it is what it is. Like I
Zoey: just took it all with a pinch of salt.
They’d ask us a couple of questions here and there, but yeah.
Kelly: And even on the day, like in the first month, I would say when I said, Oh, I remember getting really upset and saying, I miss, I think I miss, I’m worried. I’m going to miss your dad yet. I said, it’s George. And should I have that? I don’t know. I don’t know if that’s good parenting or not, but he turned to me and said, but he’s still there inside of Zoe.
And, um, that was all I needed that I was like, yeah,
Lotte: you’re right. Sage. Amazing. And Zoey, how did it make you feel when you first heard your kids call you
Zoey: mum? But nice. It’s like I still, yeah. Cause they chose, we, we never forced them to start calling me mom to call me anything. In particular, we let that, let that kind of developed naturally.
Um, and they developed it to mommy’s though. Sometimes they call, um, Kelly, M K and I’m N Zed trying to be cool with the kids and everything. I don’t know. Um, so it was odd, but nice. And I think I’m still even still today. I find it strange here in my name being called and. It took a while to adapt to like both in the house and outside of the house.
Really. You can remember
Kelly: at that time, a friend chased you down the street and was going. So you was like someone calling
you
Stu: and how about friends and family then? Cause a family. I mean a lot of family. Have such a strong support network around them to help them on just a day-to-day basis or an emotional basis.
Did your support network change in any way? I
Zoey: think we’ve always had quite a small family anyway. Um, I’m Kelly side is pretty much just your mom and she. When we, when we sat down with her, she, we, we were quite serious and obviously very nervous in the very early days, we were very nervous about telling anyone, especially people who were close to us again, in case they disowned us.
Um, So when we sat down, we were very nervous and serious and we need to sit you down when you sort of talk about this and this and this. And we came out with it and she just did a massive sigh of relief. She’s like, Oh, you were so serious. I thought you were going to split up per se. Oh. So she’s happy with that.
And she’s been really supportive.
Kelly: She’s supportive. She goes to get her nails done with you
Zoey: to get her nails done and stuff. My mum lives a few miles away. So I don’t get to see her very often, but she’s, she’s been making the efforts, um, to ha to help out and to. Support me she’s cause because we don’t see each other as often, she does sometimes.
Um, mis-gender me and misnamed me. So that’s a bit of a struggle, but as time progresses, it’s getting better. So, you know, I’ve always had a bit of a distant relationship with my dad who I don’t speak to anymore at the moment. And I’m not speaking to my brother at the moment because of it all. So. It’s quite a small amount of family who supports us.
We’ve lost a few friends along the way as well, but we’ve, we’ve grown our family as well. Now, both online and in the LGBT community that we’ve been taking part in. So it swings around about some of the losses hurt. But we’ve got to look after ourselves and our family first. So have you felt
Lotte: like you’ve been welcomed by the LGBTQ community?
Have you found a kind of chosen family through them or have you felt any alienation from our community
Zoey: as well? I don’t think I felt any real, any nation. We’ve heard rumors of, um, A lot of prejudice that can exist towards trans people. But from our experience, we found a, a nice close knit community, um, within Cardiff.
And like I said, online as well, all the support that we get through the blog and on Instagram is amazing. So are you going
Lotte: out to community events and stuff?
Kelly: If you consider
Stu: Karaoke
Yeah.
Zoey: Karaoke, a local, a gay pub. As far as, yeah, no, there’s a great community, um, of regulars who are really supportive, as soon as you
Kelly: walk in, everyone’s like hugging and kissing you and
Zoey: yeah, it’s really nice.
Even we feel safe.
Kelly: Give us
a hug. Yeah. But it’s like our safe space because, because I guess we have gone to places like other places and felt uncomfortable. Yeah. What kind of
Zoey: places? The generic kind of chain pubs that we used to attend. Aren’t really home for us anymore. I suppose,
Lotte: LGBT friends before coming out or is the queer scene new to you?
Kelly: Totally new for me. I met one of my best friends in the toilet, in a gay bar. So, um, he’s
Zoey: kind of stuck with us for many years. Pretty much.
Kelly: Yeah, but that’s, but you’d never been to anywhere like that until then. How’d you? So
Zoey: I was quite nervous. Entering in as I guess, no longer a perceived cisgendered straight male.
I am, I was now like fully integrating into the LGBT community and that was nervous at first, but yeah, it happened welcomed. Yeah.
Stu: So I wanted to ask you about the tools that you may have given to George and Molly to help them, if anybody should have any questions, whether that be friends or strangers, it sounds like they’ve pretty much got the tools themselves, but is there anything that you’ve empowered them with?
Open
Kelly: conversation? Um, honesty. But X galore books are like the biggest tool of life. I think just reading together and learning together.
Zoey: I think the biggest thing with us is because we’ve home educated from quite an early age with them. They went to school a little bit, but we’ve hooked home educated a lot.
Um, the way we have always spoken to them and taught them is through honesty and respect and yeah. And not, not. Terrifyingly blunt, but quite Frank about life and about gender and a lot of things even before coming out,
Kelly: which gets mis-gendered all the time. He’s got long blonde hair and he gets mis-gendered a lot.
And Molly will. Often step in before I get chance to, and say something to complete strangers. Like that’s my brother you’re talking to. Um, and George has got this theory that you get to know someone before, you know, the agenda. Like, it’s it, you shouldn’t just presume it. So, but yeah, they’ve experienced stuff themselves, I
Zoey: guess.
Not long after coming out. Um, George’s best friend, uh, was in a school assembly and there was like a local police officer who came out to give a talk about hate crime and stuff like that. And bearing in mind, these are like eight and nine year olds in his year. Anyway. Um, And he stood up and said, Oh my best friend’s mum is transgender.
And he was quite proud of that. And the head teacher called his mom in to see how proud she should be of having such a son who was as open-minded and proud of that, which was really good. How
Stu: nice, what a
Lotte: nice
Kelly: story. So, yeah, they’ve been pretty, I dunno, is the word lucky? I don’t know. Cause we’ve heard of other children who get.
You know, maybe a little bit of grief and stuff, but their friends, even the ones that go to school, it just doesn’t, they ask questions and they, you know, they’re inquisitive, but they’ve never, they’ve seen more stuff or that they’ve ever had an income children, but say we’ve been to restaurant for example, and they’ve seen staff Stan and just laugh at Zoe and point and point and point at her and poke their friends.
And, you know, they’ve seen that and they’ve just seen me. Get a bit angry and complain.
Stu: I just,
Kelly: steam comes out my, um, it hasn’t happened for a long time. He was stuck in there. You know, it hasn’t happened for a long time, even pre locked down has it. Um, but they’ve, they’ve seen adults behave in that way and they don’t, they don’t like it.
Um, but I, there’s not much you can do apart from explain. Maybe we shouldn’t be like that because. The adults are just doing this stuff and it’s difficult,
Zoey: isn’t it? Yeah. One of the biggest things I keep seeing recently is that prejudice. Isn’t something you’re born with. It’s something you learn or you’re taught.
So the kids, especially the younger ones are so open-minded. Yes, they’re inquisitive, but they’re never judgment.
Lotte: And so what advice then would you give, um, other families. You might be going through this. What would you say to them if they were here now saying that that thinking about coming
Zoey: out, it’s hard to say this in particular, but if I could have said to myself, I would say try not to be as afraid and be honest, maybe a little sooner.
To, to my family in particular, because I’ve been lucky, not everyone is so that’s, that’s a difficult one to say really. Um, I think honesty is always the best policy. Um, being honest with yourself will make you a kind of person in the long run. Anyway, if you’re keeping something this big inside you, it’s only going to eat you up and.
It’s going to come out in other ways, you know, I was, I had, like I said earlier, I had an eating disorder because of it. Um, I would get grumpy, depressed, uh, maybe a little bit angry at times and you know, who knows how these things could come out if, if they’re not out out. So I guess just talk, talk and be honest about things about your feelings.
And, you know, hopefully from, from my point of view, you know, it’s been positive and amazing. So hopefully it could be as well
Stu: for them. For those that aren’t so lucky. Do you know of any resources that you would recommend that you found out along the way along the journey that you’d read?
Kelly: It’s hard? Well, in terms of stories for me, when, when you came out, I just wanted to read a story where a relationship at work, and there was so much negativity online.
Literally. There’s just story after story, after story of breakup. Yeah.
Zoey: Um, And I think that’s what prompted us to kind of start talking more about our story is to put a positive story out there or another one at least. Yeah.
Kelly: But we do know of people that haven’t necessarily made it as a couple, either, either the, either it breaks down completely or they’re just still friends.
Um, and as, as positive resources, I mean, you’ve got, you’ve got obviously the support websites you’ve got like Stonewall. But I suppose the two stories it’s
hard.
Lotte: To find, I guess you guys are that right. You’re that’s.
Stu: And I want you to ask you too, as well about memories and. From my experience. It’s not always everyone’s experience, but so much of my family is built up of the memories we’ve had together and the photos that we have up around the house and, and all those kinds of things.
So for Georgia, Molly, how much do you lean into your, your. Your previous identity, you know, do you still celebrate that with them? I
Kelly: removed every trace of you pre, pre coming out of where we’ve started to though purely because like it’s a new, it’s a new kind of, yeah. Um, but we won’t be getting rid of things.
They’re still memories aren’t they you’ve said all along. You don’t want to arrange?
Zoey: No, I mean, like, I wouldn’t be who I am today. If it wasn’t for who I was yesterday. I’m a big believer in fate, um, and everyone’s path takes them to where they’re meant to be eventually anyway. So, you know, I’ve got some very good memories and whether it was with me as a dad, as a mum, whatever it’s with me with as me at that point in my life, I suppose.
So I don’t think I’d ever want to raise anything from the past. And I certainly wouldn’t like one of the biggest things is like, would I say if I had, if I knew about being transgender as a teenager, would I have come out and transitioned early? I would like to have had the opportunity, but I would never ever trade my life that I have now with Kelly and the kids just for that.
Do you know what I mean? I think my life has led me to where I am now to maybe be in a position where. I’ve got a supportive and amazing family with two amazing kids. And I’ve now got the strength where yes, things might be a little bit more difficult for me physically because of my age, but I’ve got the strength.
To stand up for other transgender people and transgender rights now because of who I am and who have grown into no, it was really
Stu: nice. It’s an amazing way to look at it. And it’s a very obviously positive and it’s very affirmative. You could feed it between you and I think seeing a couple, you have so much love for one another is, is, is really beautiful.
Kelly: Don’t you start making me cry. So we have, um, or on our podcast called aunt Sally, who is the, she’s just the worst. She’s the person that will come up to you at parties, or, um, you know, we sit down next to you on a bus and we’ll just look at you and just come right out with the most inappropriate.
Insensitive ignorant question and expect you to answer it. So have you had any aunt Sally moments and could you narrow them down if you have to just one or two of the worst ones? I
was
Zoey: approached in the toilets of, um, a gay pub by a lady who was not. Okay. She was there on a random Mozart with her husband or partner or whoever he was extremely drunk and extremely rude.
Um, asking firstly, if I still had a penis, um, and then asking us whether we still have sex
Kelly: and asking me yeah. Whether,
what did she say? I don’t remember. You feel embarrassed? It’s like, do I say these words? I’m
asking me, she, she was saying things like you don’t, you don’t like, what can I say
Stu: this? Go for it.
I have a feeling that aunt Sally has some kind of dick obsession right?
Zoey: SHe does have a bit of an obsession.
Kelly: You don’t like Willie, you don’t like Willie, all this stuff at me. And I was just like, Yeah, away from me. Just get away from me. I couldn’t cope really
Zoey: polite. I mean, I’ll always be polite, but you know, sometimes there’s a, there’s a point where he just needs to move away from, somebody did get
to
Kelly: a point and we just said, you need to, you need to go, you need to go and stop asking
Zoey: about Dick.
Yeah, basically.
Kelly: Yeah. It’s just
insane. And you’ve had people touch you and appropriately
Zoey: wanna touch my tubes and stuff. Oh, are they real? Are they, this are they that it’s like, hang on. That’s not okay. Regardless of whatever gender I may or may not be, that is not an okay thing to do. So don’t do it. Not sex.
Lotte: Oh, aunt Sally. That is, she is,
Stu: she is found when the next wedding I’m
Lotte: telling you. No, that’s it done done with it?
Kelly: I just don’t know how people ask these. I’d never got to someone
Stu: on ask those questions.
Zoey: I don’t get it on. So just be careful.
Stu: Yeah. I, I ha I did just want to ask what you, what would be your hope for say 10 years time in how the world, especially media, uh, represents transgender, not just people, but transgender
families.
Zoey: I think somebody commented on something that we did recently and they said something along the lines of their kids are as open-minded and nonjudgmental as ours are.
And their hope would be that in like a scene about 10, 20 years time or whatever, there’s no need for anyone regardless of their gender, their sexuality, or anything to come out or to justify who they are for just everyone to be allowed to just be, and to live their way. Love is love. People are people and that’s all that matters,
Kelly: but you did get to have a big party when you came out.
I did that.
Zoey: Well, you could sit at a party if you want to.
Kelly: Just thinking of the positives coming out, you know,
Lotte: I guess something it’s just made me think about just since talking to you guys, I like why I’m so interested to sort of keep coming back to the same question is making me realize how, um, how like burdened by labels.
We are, even when we’re the most open-minded people, because I keep wanting to think, well, How are you feeling now as a mum, you’ve got the kind of identity of a woman and the identity of a mum, but actually I’m challenging myself as I’m saying that because, well, I should mum come with such a, a given identity in the first place, you know, it’s me battling my own, the own stereotypes of what I have of what a mother is or isn’t anyway.
Well, I think that’s a general thing, isn’t it? It’s the mom is yet another label and is it actually even needed were parents at the end of the day? Um, we have different qualities regardless of our agenda and we are parents. So, um,
Zoey: I think like every, every parent, even in, um, cisgendered straight couples will have their own way of parenting.
So everyone’s unique in, in everything that they do. So, yeah,
Lotte: I just, I really think we do need to start changing the language around motherhood in culture. You know, it’s something Stu talks about a lot is gay dads just feeling so excluded by the language. If mother and baby groups and mum and mum that, and actually, if we did start reaching towards the picture where we could just talk more neutrally about parenting, rather than prescribing these like heavy burdened identities to mum and dad, like what a happier future that would be.
Zoey: I only remember only a couple of years ago, all the mother and baby parking spaces in the shops becoming parents and child. Do you know what I mean?
Lotte: I, I like the sound of the world that you, you described in 10 years time. But I do think that when George and Molly are running the country, that’s one step to how we’ll be doing, because honestly I want them to, they are amazing.
They are all role models. Guys listening to them. If you’re listening to this, we’d really recommend you go and check out some of, um, Kelly and Zoey’s those videos, um, and the, particularly the videos that they’ve done with their kids, because they’re truly, truly heartwarming and will renew your faith in humankind.
Um, so guys, thank you so much for talking to us today. It’s been so nice seeing your face on video conferencing. Cool.
Zoey: Thank you for having us.
Kelly: It’s been lovely. I felt like I learned things. The more we do staff, the more I learn about like, even the thing I’m learning from the things you were saying.
Lotte: Yeah.
Well, well thank you for sharing your story as well, because I think that’s the only way we’ll ever. Change as a society, more and more people start being authentic about their experiences and sharing them. So thank you. Yeah. Really lovely to meet you. Where do we find you guys online on
Zoey: Instagram at our transitional life, Twitter and, um, Facebook page, which is at our trans life.
Just any way, if you need to talk to us, you know, or like, I think the past few days I’ve, must’ve had communications with a few different people and I’ll always give. As safe as I possibly can.
Lotte: Well, Kelly and Zoe, pretty damn fabulous. Wouldn’t you agree latte? Yeah. I felt really heartwarming by speaking to them.
Not only because of how emotionally intelligent they both seemed and how wonderfully, um, Sorted their kids are in terms of their attitude to their parents, gender identities, and family dynamic. Like what amazing role model, as you said, in the introductions to what amazing role models those kids are. And it gives me a lot of faith in the future generations, um, being just more open-minded and tolerant and actually one of the things.
That I found the most interesting about talking to them was challenging my own ideas of what a mom and a dad are and realizing how much of that is a kind of unconscious bias or like a learn, um, stereotype that. Despite being gay and, and sort of quote, unquote, other myself, I’ve lived with this very heteronormative idea of what a mother is and what a father is, and actually realizing that as soon as we can just talk about parents on an equal.
Um, scale, like that’s going to be so freeing from the way we think about, uh, parental leave work to the way that Stu as you’ve talked about, um, things are sort of gendered unnecessarily. And like, I think that’s just the future to talk about parenting rather than to talk about. Being a mom and being a dad
Stu: a hundred percent.
And that is something that does need to change in the future. And I think it will. I think the world is moving. At a slow pace. It is moving as we’ve seen with the conversations about gender themselves. But I feel that hasn’t necessarily seeped into the parenting world whilst at the same time. And as you mentioned, there is so much about motherhood that is up for discussion and trying to gain quite rightly equality for mothers across the board.
Whereas I. I personally believe there is going to be no equality for mothers until the idea of motherhood is changed to Parenthood so that you can be completely and talking about the kids as well. I think that was, again, something for me that I, and I call them role models because I would love my children to grow up.
With that kind of attitude and approach to life and identity, and they just seem super cool. And I loved that the children had that instilled in them. Even when the family, as they identified themselves as CIS family cis-gendered family, and they still had that. So they had the tools there and ready to be able to deal with any situation that came up.
And I think that is the key. The key is, is not just queer families. You know, having the tools to be able to talk about and express their feelings in this way, it has to be families across the board so that when something unexpected happens may not be unexpected to the person who it’s happening to, but it could be unexpected to someone, the kids and the next generation are able to go.
Yeah, it’s fine. Move on, say what that’s now mom, or, you know,
think we
Lotte: need to, to give kids a bit more respect of their intelligence and ability to, to just be okay with these things, because they haven’t learned the same historical, um, prejudices that we as people in our mid, late thirties. And
Stu: do you know who we need to give less respect to.
Hey, or actually I have zero respect for aunt Sally. Oh, she was terrible today. Yeah. But in all seriousness though, I just any form of people’s ignorance and the way that they come out with things never fails to shock me and for Kelly and Zoe to both have those kinds of things. Asked of them or even T I I’m sorry, but even just people feeling, they have the right to touch her.
And I just, I just, it just baffles me. It’s just so beyond and their positivity and their view and attitude to everything has, is, is spot on really, I think, and the way that they deal with it.
Lotte: We really hope you guys at home listening have taken as much as we have from our chat with Zoe and Kelly stay.
And please do get in touch with us. If you are experiencing a similar situation or a similar but different situation, or you have anything that you’d like to enlighten us about or share with us, please find us on social media or contact us on email. You can find all the details in the show notes. Stu.
It’s been really, really lovely talking to you again today. And I can’t wait to be in the same room as you at two meters apart. Of course. Sometime in the near future.
Stu: I miss our studio and I miss bubbles many bottles of wine that we would share late into the evening. But thank you very much for listening.
Lotte: Bye everyone. Bye.