In this week’s episode Lotte talks to Riyadh Khalaf, YouTuber, podcaster, documentary maker and the Future Dad. Riyadh explores the idea of being a father and what it means to be gay, how relinquishing control can be difficult for queer parents and what he’s learnt from being the proud owner of Claire the cat. Lotte and Stu discuss role models, their coming out stories and how it can affect parenting.
Full transcription below.
Riyadh Khalaf: By having a kid maybe I’m going against my own idea of what it means to be gay. I think I’d be really really really cool to ask my mom one of her fears when I came out was oh my god, I’m not gonna grandkids but I’m slowly but surely seeing the incredible benefit and gift that it is to be an adoptive parents. And how gorgeous that is.
Stu Oakley: So welcome to some families, the LGBTQ parenting podcast where we’re going to deep dive into all things parenting, whether your kid has two moms, two dads or any other combination you can think of. I’m Stu Oakley,
Lotte Jeffs: And I am Lotte. Jeffs,
Stu Oakley: so we’re going to find out what’s new.
This week. Yes, yeah.
Lotte Jeffs: So I recently found myself on a country retreat with the presenter, author and YouTube megastar Riyadh Khalaf who’s an incredible guy, young guy icon of course you know who he is. He’s fabulous.
Riyadh Khalaf: I was about 13, 14. And that’s when I started to see myself looking at the other boys in my class and thinking, Oh, god, oh, god, what is going on? I’m not meant to feel this way about other guys. I meant to be attracted to girls, but I wasn’t.
Stu Oakley: it’s just the two of you?
Lotte Jeffs: And this is a long story. It was me and a load of millennial influences in a country house in Kent for four days. Thank you, BBC.
Stu Oakley: New BBC reality?
Lotte Jeffs: honestly thought I was being like properly Truman Show the whole time because, yeah, it was very funny. But he we really bonded. We were the two gay people on the trip. And we were speaking a lot and I thought, Oh, actually, even though he’s not a gay parent. He’s, you know, young. He’s a In the relationship, he’s just not at that stage of his life, I’d be really interested to talk to him about his perception of potentially becoming a parent one day and because he told me that he loves, loves, loves his cat, and it was so sweet the way he was talking about his cat. And he was saying, actually, you know, recently, he has started to consider the possibility that he would like to be a father in a way that he had never previously talked about or thought about.
Stu Oakley: Yeah, I mean, I think people scoff sometimes at pets as being I think for, I think for for LGBT people, I think actually actually got actually we’re not LGBT people, but people in general. Yeah. Like pets are the first like, can you care for something? Yeah. When we went through the adoption process, especially the fact that we had two dogs was massively really
Lotte Jeffs: Well, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve ever been to LA but in LA like tiny dogs a definite surrogate Children for the gay community like so many gay men love their dogs and I for females as well and older females but my friend in LA Who? My friend in LA who’s dating says that guys in LA call themselves on Grindr and other dating apps they call themselves like dog daddies or daddy to two dogs. You know, it’s like a defining thing thing. They are their children.
Stu Oakley: Well, let’s hear you’re a man.
Riyadh Khalaf: I’m a broadcaster. I’ve done some documentaries of BBC Three. I make my own documentaries on YouTube. And I do couple of podcasts for BBC Radio One have mainly bad sex and relationships and sort of unusual fetishes. So not very BBC ish. And I just wrote a book called your gay now what a gay boys Guide to Life and it is exactly what it says it is.
Lotte Jeffs: Amazing. And so you’re how old?
Riyadh Khalaf: 28.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah, you just come across as so mature. I was like, oh, but so I asked you that because I’m interested in your parenting journey. And so I wonder if it’s something at your age, you’ve started thinking about already, or if it’s something you’re thinking, Oh, well, I’m 30 also thinking about it then.
Riyadh Khalaf: And yeah, no, it’s always been on my mind since day one, actually, like, and I mean, like, since childhood, I have a child. And I think that’s because like, I grew up with a parenting structure that was incredibly warm and loving and joy failed, and then it kind of it kind of tapered off and was awful during the coming out process and then came back up out the other end, and even better than it was before. So I always have looked at my parents and admired their level of love and friendship for me, and with me, I wanted to kind of emulate that and copy it in But I’ve always been like, it’ll happen down the line, it’ll happen down the line. And then as the years have sort of fallen away, and I’ve sort of, I’ve gotten a flat though, like I’ve become financially stable and sustainable on my own without any help, and sort of looking at the bigger pillars of one’s life beyond Saturday night, beyond, you know, I’m gonna get that bag. I am starting to think about it more seriously. I don’t think it’s in my near future. Yeah. Well, I you know, I’m feel like each year I’m doing one thing that kind of makes me more parent worthy, if that makes sense.
Lotte Jeffs: Have you ever felt or did you feel growing up that you wanted to be a parent, but you felt that because you were a gay man, it just wasn’t gonna happen for you, or have you always felt like it’s a possibility?
Riyadh Khalaf: Yeah. I did feel like My journey was definitely going to be harder. And that maybe, maybe I’m just not destined to advocate and actually my hypothesis as to even why gay people exist consent population control. You know, I believe that it’s a it’s a genetic and not flaw not mutation but, and, and genetic sort of trick that has been bred into people like you and I, to probably, you know, save the world. I think that’s our part.
Lotte Jeffs: That’s a really interesting perspective on gay parenting.
Riyadh Khalaf: Yeah. So I I kind of think that by having a kid maybe Am I going against my own idea of what it means to be gay? Yeah, but I think I’m, I think I’m willing to kind of throw that away because I think I’d be really really, really cool to ask. And when I think about it, I get a warm feeling in my belly. I don’t have what I did have, which is panic. Yeah. And that has come from finding a partner who I think could be a dad with me and be an amazing lover. Farther, and hilariously, recently getting a cat.
Lotte Jeffs: No Yeah, your cat.
Riyadh Khalaf: The cat has has sort of really trained me the really basic level of selflessness.
Lotte Jeffs: Mm hmm.
Riyadh Khalaf: And putting everything into this being, and trying to make everything as happy and uncomfortable and good for them. beyond yourself.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah, yeah. And you were telling me yesterday about when your cat was ill and
Riyadh Khalaf: sort of not minding because I kind of got off on the fact that she was caring for her. Like, this is my job. Yeah, this is my calling. I am going to make this cat not have diarrhoea anymore.
Lotte Jeffs: And welcome to being a parent. Yeah. So beyond having another cat. If you were actually thinking about having a child, what do you think are your options available to you?
Riyadh Khalaf: So as someone who hasn’t done research on this, yes, perhaps you’ve kind of gone down that journey and fostering Hmm, adoption sir accuracy. Yeah. And I don’t know which one is right for me. Yes. But it actually comes up in conversation more times than you might believe in with friends or with you. Yeah. Because we, you know, I think I had very different view to him up until recently I was all about by law biological babies, because you were interested to see your genes
Lotte Jeffs: Yes.
Riyadh Khalaf: carried on someone else. Yes. And and my legacy. Yeah, and my name and my base and my quite selfish things, actually, my ego driven things. And I think it actually comes down a lot to being a man. And this is sort of bred into me from I don’t know, society, tele parents. So what I’m slowly but surely seeing the incredible benefit and gift that it is to be an adoptive parents and, and how gorgeous that is. So I’m not opposed to it as I was before.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah, I mean, think how much you love your cat. How easy it is to love something that you care
Riyadh Khalaf: for, you know, and she is essentially an adopted child. Yes. You know?
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah. So did your boyfriend sort of steer you then to think more about less ego more? How could this be something that we
Riyadh Khalaf:
we give a gift to a child who needs it? Yes. So my boyfriend had a boyfriend before me who was adopted, right. I’ve had quite a traumatic journey. And I’ve never met the guy. I’ve just heard all the badness. And when Josh even just speaks about his adoptive mother, his exes, adoptive mother, and the trauma that he went through with his biological parents, he gets emotional instantly. It’s quick, and he understands it better than I do, the process and why it’s great. So I don’t know but maybe we’ll we’ll go and try and adopt a child and then maybe try and ask Have one biologically but the other side of it is who’s gonna be the biological parent? And I don’t want, I don’t want that to cause a rift or, you know, to cause confusion.
Lotte Jeffs:
It’s good that you’re having these conversations now because they’re, they’re such long conversations like me and my wife started thinking about having a baby. You know, it starts with a conversation over dinner. And it’s almost like a bit of a joke. And then you sort of say, like, a week later about that thing we were talking about, and then the conversation develops. And before you know it, you’re at that moment of like, should we actually do this? And that’s a scary moment, but
Riyadh Khalaf:
are you asked regularly. So who’s the biological parents? And how does that make you feel and respond? it’s
Lotte Jeffs:
I think it’s quite obviously the biological parent is with our daughter because although we try to choose a donor who had dark complexion, like me, my wife is very fair and our daughter very fair. So, and she just really looks like my wife, which is so lovely, really wonderful. And I’m really, really happy. She does look like her. But I think it’s quite clear. Do people ask, I’ve had people’s I’ve had it where I’ve said, oh, I’ve got a young baby. And people have said to me, God, your finger, you’ve really bounced back. And I really like to just sort of carry on with that for a bit and just be like, yeah, and then I’ll just drop it in and be like, Oh, actually, I didn’t physically.
Riyadh Khalaf: I like that. Yeah, some
Lotte Jeffs: people can be. I think if the conversation came up when my daughter was old enough to engage with what people were asking, which is essentially which one of these women’s your real mom, I think I’d have a real problem with that more, because that’s putting her in a situation of feeling like one of us isn’t as real a mother to her as the other. So I think that’s something I’m really going to be conscious of as she potentially gets older. Yeah, but interesting. Thinking about your parents, you, your parents are sort of so much a part of your narrative and your videos and the story that you tell about yourself and you talk quite openly about your dad’s issues with your coming out. How do you think they’d feel about you having children,
Riyadh Khalaf: They’d love it. Really. My parents are so designed to be grandparents, like it’s in them. And my, my mom, one of her fears when I came out was, oh my god, I’m not gonna have grandkids and then she was like, Oh, I don’t care, you react, you get a dog. Honestly, that’s what you’re designed to have. And then as time has gone on, and she’s seen that I’ve turned from quite a selfish 20, something year old who was just out to chase a dream and a career to someone who is softer now and shares life experience with them. I take them away on holiday if I can. And, you know, she started to see that there’s a paternal gene in me that’s beginning to blossom. And, you know, I face timed her the other day and with Claire walking around me and on my neck and, you know, I was getting emotional just talking about my love that I have for this fur ball and I could see the glint in her eyes and FaceTime camera that she knew. I’m gonna have a grandkid one day. Yeah, I think now that I’m actually talking about it, you just, I don’t think I have any option. But to have a kid.
Lotte Jeffs: So do you feel like you’re ready to become a dad anytime soon?
Riyadh Khalaf: Not anytime soon. I think it’s probably it’s probably maybe eight to 10 years I say.
Lotte Jeffs: Why do you say that say confidently that you know you’re not ready now.
Riyadh Khalaf: I just look at me even five years ago versus me now. Are you with me a year ago. I’ve become more dad material with each year that goes on and I don’t want to be premature about it. And Jump into something that early but also for selfish reasons. You know, I think I, I’ve got so many things that I want to experience without the responsibility that comes with having a human, small, tiny human. Because, you know, there are, you know, I guess they’re typically useful are gay things that I still want to do I still want to go to, you know big nights out with my fellow and I want to travel loads with them to places that might not be suitable for a kid and I think that it can also for me to teach the human and worldly experiences I’ve got to live them. I’ve got to make more mistakes and you know, sort of live more life.
Lotte Jeffs: It’s so interesting to me talking to gay people thinking about having families because we put all of this thought into it, you know, and you have the option for it to be a choice, especially men that don’t have the extra pressure of like a biological taking place to be To think like, I’m going to do this at the perfect time for me. Yes. I wonder though what it feels like if you do then think, Oh, well, I’ve decided that I’m going to do it now. Therefore it’s going to happen. And it’s not always that easy. So how do you think you’d cope if you had decided to yet now’s the time for me and my partner to do this. And then maybe it wasn’t quite as easy as he thought,
Riyadh Khalaf: I think could be really difficult because I’m, as a person, I’m very, very, very impatient with everything, work, personal life, things that I want to physically own. And I want them now and you know that from the last few days of us being together, a lot of my frustrations have been, why don’t I have the next big TV talk show right now. And I put that that will come in time. And so but I am very aware that this is not a commodity and not an item that I will have and then I will replace and or I then won’t have, I can sell. This is a forever thing. And that’s kind of the reason why you’re doing it.
Lotte Jeffs: Do you think you have to relinquish some of that control but I wonder if something about being gay makes you more likely to be a control freak in the sense that you’re kind of in charge of your own narrative and you’re so conscious of telling your story in the way you want to tell it. And it’s important for us to have that sense of control over our lives because otherwise other people will take our thing and turn it into something will get us wrong. So then having a family having a child is forces you to drop that and you can’t, you can’t control it.
Riyadh Khalaf: Yeah. And because you that really resonates a lot. The control thing, obsession with control and gay men in general is an epidemic. You know, because it starts with you know, trying to control your secret control your voice control your mannerisms, and and control society and keep the secret at bay. And then it’s manifests and morphs in to older, darker and more undercover subconscious things after coming out, because now the thing that you’re trying to control is you don’t need to control anymore because it’s a gorgeous thing that the world accepts at large. But then you want to control your because you get you get addicted to the feeling the did the rewarding feeling of knowing that you’ve managed to control the thing. And when when you don’t need to do that anymore It takes new and a spot right in your life find another comfort in the control. Yeah, and it is in that book that I spoke to you briefly about which is called the velvet rage. And and that book breaks that the gay male life into three stages. It is a kind of shame and hate near secret. Then you come out and you kind of love your secret you love yourself but you still have all these hang ups. And then finally in stage three, you begin to live and love yourself and let go with the shackles that you’ve had. And, you know, control is a big shackle and you You know, even you as a lesbian mother, and I could see you over the last couple of days battle with your own need to control.
Lotte Jeffs: Yes, I mean, for me personally, that is how I have learned how to just give up trying to be the sort of ringmaster of things because like, when you’ve got a toddler, you think your day is going to be one thing. And then it’s just not. And if you fought against that, you would just be so like, desperately unhappy and frustrated the entire time. You just have to learn to go with it. So it’s so interesting for me to hear you talk about those three stages with gay men. I think that it does resonate for lesbians as well. But I just think there’s culturally less
Riyadh Khalaf: pressure maybe, because it’s because masculinity is so highly prized, absolutely. And in gay men where it might not be as evident or my present in a different way. You kind of got to make it up in other places. So I might not have the masculine voice or the masculine interests. By God, am I gonna have an Adonis body? So it’s kind of fur coat, no knickers. Yeah, you know, it’s like, outwardly, this is what you’ll think I am. but inwardly I’m still this last, still kind of closeted young boy who doesn’t really know who he is.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah. And we’re sort of at the Vanguard with gay parenting of this being something now that gay men can factor into their ideas about their future. And thinking about kind of getting to that place where you’re ready for it and you’re up for it. And you’re up for bringing that element of absolute chaos and having to relinquish control into your life. I think we’re going to have to get to a point of feeling quite evolved. Yeah, for that to be something that naturally
Riyadh Khalaf: Yeah, I mean, I, I know I have my demons or my issues that come from my past somebody’s upbringing but I think because I’ve got such love and support with my parents and I have them as great examples. I’ve been able to kind of look inward. really heavily work on myself rather than coast. coasting isn’t going to get you anywhere. And I’m doing that in my mid to late 20s. Now has allowed me to kind of surprised myself, like I said, For for what’s to come down the line and not to put any expectation on myself. If I still have these demons in five years and Fine, let’s continue working. Yeah. But it’s about this whole, you know, movement of meditation and mindfulness, mindfulness. If you’re not, if you’re not enjoying the thing that you’re doing right now and the journey to the whatever the destination is, then what the hell was the point in it all?
Lotte Jeffs: And I think everything you’ve just said is exactly what will make you an amazing parent one day if you choose to go down that route. So yes, thank you so much.
Riyadh Khalaf: No problem. Yeah, and I’ll bring my baby on. When they exist,
Lotte Jeffs: That could be you in in a decade.
Riyadh Khalaf: Yes.
Lotte Jeffs: Meet the family. Thank you for having Riyadh
Lotte Jeffs: So Stu, were you a bit jealous? I got to interview Riyadh because he’s so gorgeous.
Stu Oakley: Yeah, very was very upset but
Lotte Jeffs: he’s such a brilliant role model for
Stu Oakley: young he’s amazing people and amazing YouTube channels. Yeah, but I think the journey he’s been on now and who he’s kind of become wanting to be is really impressive. Yeah, I think he’s a very he’s he’s very inspirational to the younger generation.
Lotte Jeffs: Don’t you wish there were people like him around? Well, young God. Yeah. Beauty if you don’t mind me asking. How old are you?
Stu Oakley: I am 34.
Lotte Jeffs: Okay, I’m 37. Okay. So when we were younger,
Stu Oakley: yeah, there wasn’t he was. There wasn’t there was. I mean, they were all I mean, that’s a whole other topic.
Lotte Jeffs: Anyway, Riyadh
Stu Oakley: here we go out into but we’re pleased that Riyadh exists. Oh, yeah, absolutely. And I think for his younger generation, I think, for his job, his younger generation, but for the younger generation that are looking up to him, he is it’s just great to have those kind of roles, especially from his background. I’ve never I’ve never come out. Ever. Really. I’ve never heard myself. I’ve never had to do that. I’ve never, I am so gay.
Lotte Jeffs: I didn’t even need to say I was Yeah,
Stu Oakley: I just never did. I never came out to my mom. I never came out to people at school. I’ve never come out.
Lotte Jeffs: Okay, did you just, I just introduced your boyfriend for the first time.
Stu Oakley: That’s exactly how you could say I came out to my mom. Yeah. I bought john who’s my husband now home. When we first started dating. My mom called How old 2121 when I met john, but it must have it was only a few months in. I introduced him to my mom. And it was she found me I was living in a home at the time. She phoned me up she lived down the road in Shoreham. She phoned me up and said, Could you want to come round your artist round this weekend? I said, sure. But I’ve got john with me who’s been sending a copy john. JOHN, I just said john and she was like, bring him Okay. Go in the car went over to mom’s knocked on the door, open the door. She welcomed him with open arms. And then just said to me, she’s like, Where’s your washing? And I said, Oh, I didn’t bring it and, and she said, Oh, don’t start a relationship like this, john. Oh, he bet and I’ll be doing it around you or making you do it. Like she just she just said it immediately. And that was, that was my coming out moment, but it kind of was my clutch.
Lotte Jeffs: Because listen that doesn’t it stop having to be like, Mom. Yeah, I’m gay, whatever. No. Awkward. Yeah, I kind of did. And I wish that I didn’t, it would have just been, I think my mom, my parents would have been probably exactly the same. It’s like, straight people don’t have to do that. No. Why
Stu Oakley: Do you think and this is, you know, to bring it back to why we’re here. Yeah, we’re getting we’re getting, you know, we can go into our wide LGBT area. But do you ever think that that as gay parents as lesbian parents that your daughter will ever have to Come out to you. Yeah, it’s a nice thing mom,
Lotte Jeffs: I’d like to think that we’re emotionally intelligent enough and aware enough to be able to pick up on it. Either way, I think it’s probably more likely that we would think that we knew and she would surprise us or we would have got it completely wrong because kids are always surprising you on there. Yeah. But yeah, that was a very interesting conversation with react and I think really made me aware of the generational differences. Absolutely. But I think
Stu Oakley: Control thing Sorry, no, go right back. Bring it back. Throw it off into my own coming out story. I was like Riyadh, I’m not stealing this away on my own. But I never had to hide myself. I never. I was just always me. And and I on my other flipside, I sometimes didn’t like me, but it wasn’t a control thing of that. I was trying to hide it. hearing his him talking about control and then obviously talking about how then you deal with that. Because yes, as a parent, there is no control. No.
Lotte Jeffs: And I think that it’s really good that Riyadh is acknowledging that about himself. And I, I know a lot of gay men that do have those same issues. And I’m really heartened to hear that you didn’t, because I’m sure there’s a lot of people that don’t either and that’s great. But I do think like as gay parenting becomes more and more mainstream, and just more and more gay people decide to have families that I think that will come up as an issue and certainly one that male couples are having to sort of grapple with themselves and think, well, if we are going to bring children into our relationship dynamic, what is that going to do? Can we actually cope with the real life myths of having children in our lives? But I think we’ll have to catch up with Riyadh in another few years. He’s Yes, he’s had children.
Stu Oakley: He’s got Many I’m like, How old is he? 20 Yeah, he’s not even 30. So, just know. Yeah, just enjoy your life. Exactly. Enjoy your time. Enjoy it. So tonight has been various bottles. I mean, as we’ve had some families drink red,
Stu Oakley: And if you’re an expecting family, then you’ve got a lot of drink to come. So Chuck, spread the word. leave us a review and tell your friends. subscribe so you don’t miss an episode. Send us your questions, or tell us what you want to hear more of and you can find all our details in the show notes.