This week we listen to Stu’s chat with TwoDads.U.K, Michael and Wes, fathers of three; two via surrogacy and one from a previous relationship. Michael and Wes talk about the relationship they have with their surrogate, preparing yourself for every possibility when it comes to fertility treatments and the reforms on the Surrogacy Arrangements Act. Stu and Lotte catch up on the good old fashioned telephone and learn about surrogacy and talk changing mindsets when it comes to heteronormative methods of having a child.
Not for profits in the UK
https://surrogacyuk.org/ https://www.brilliantbeginnings.co.uk/ https://www.surrogacy.org.uk/
Manchester clinic:
https://www.carefertility.com/our-clinics/fertility-clinic-manchester/
Full transcription below.
Michael: We then the right okay, so we need to find a clinic, find an egg donor, find a surrogates. And that’s when the journey really began. Yeah,
Wes: picture of a pregnancy test popped up. And it was a positive one. Wow. So
Michael: So yeah. And then that’s when our life changed,
Wes: you know went to Talulah waste in the morning and she told me that she loves me. And she beams. It’s just the copy that No you can’t. It’s it’s you know it’s special.
Lotte Jeffs: Hello and welcome to some families we are an LGBTQ plus parenting podcast that is with you at every stage of your parenting journey. Whether you are just in those early stages of talking about possibly one day maybe wanting to have kids with your partner, or maybe you’re knee deep in nappies, or you could even be raising a teenager. We are with you and we see you We are so happy that you’ve joined us here today. This is a slightly strange podcast recording my co host Stu. Hello, Stu.
Stu Oakley: Hello everyone.
Lotte Jeffs: He is at the other end of a phone line today rather than sitting opposite me in the studio and I missed his little face.
Stu Oakley : I just didn’t Fancy seeing you today. So I thought I’d squirrel myself away and be like, Oh, you know what, I’m just gonna phone this one in literally
Lotte Jeffs: We are obviously in the grips of a global pandemic, which is slightly putting the kibosh on our meeting up and recording podcasts. Yeah,
Lotte Jeffs: but it’s not stopping us talking to some amazing people who are at different stages of parenting journey, and having different experiences themselves Stu that we talked to you this week.
Stu Oakley: So this week, we were very, very lucky to talk to Michael and Wes they have three children between them two via surrogacy and one was the biological child from a previous relationship that great advocates for our community. They really champion a lot causes and they’ve really been a great voice for queer parents so far. It was great for me because I don’t know anything about surrogacy really. It was not really a journey that my husband and I looked into in any depth at all. So I love meeting with them and really understanding what goes into surrogacy.
Lotte Jeffs: So Stu, I’m just interested like you say that you and your husband never considered surrogacy. Can I ask why?
Stu Oakley: Yeah,
Stu Oakley: I mean, when I say we’ve never considered surrogacy, maybe that’s a bit too drastic. There was a point where I think john was keen to potentially look at it. I had always wanted to do adoption. For me, personally, and again, it’s my own, you know, personal choice with it was that there are so many children that are out there already that that needed a home and also the feeling if john and i were going to bring a child into the world, I would have loved for it to have part of us by Logically, both within it, and the fact they would only be one or the other, just always sent my brain through a bit of a tailspin. So when I say never considered it obviously was something we did briefly discuss. But because adoption for me was such a key thing, I never even looked at the different options available or how to even really work, which is why I love talking to my coworkers because it answered a lot of questions for me. So we are going to learn about
Lotte Jeffs: The dynamic between two men and their surrogate, and we’re going to talk a lot more about the interview that you did with the guys after we hear it.
Stu Oakley: Thank you for coming in.
Wes: You’re welcome. Thank you for having us.
Stu Oakley: Oh, it’s our pleasure. So you have two children via surrogacy?
Wes: We do
Stu Oakley: And I believe you have an older child as well.
Wes: Yeah, we have Katie from a previous relationship who’s 16 this year.
Stu Oakley: So how old are your children tell us
Michael: so Talulah
Michael: is three. And Duke is five and a half months.
Stu Oakley: Congratulations.
Stu Oakley: Fairly recent, then isn’t it.
Wes: Can you tell?
Michael: Speak for yourself Wes
Stu Oakley: So let’s go right back to the start. Let’s do it. Let’s go back. So when did the conversation between you two your marriage we all Yeah. When did the conversation about having children even begin really early on actually
Wes: So Michael and I met in 2012 And I really early on in the relationship Michael asked if children was something that was on the cards and I think because I already had a child. That was a bit of a tick from where I call Yeah. So yeah, he’s, uh,
Michael: yeah, it was it was, I guess it’s it was that. It was just what I needed. I was in a relationship for a minute, whereas for sort of seven, eight years and children was never going to be an option. And then I met Wes Birmingham pride. And the question of me asking him quite quickly about children was a little bit intense. I think it was after about two or three, sort of date as I draw. I really want children so I need to know. Would you like more kids? And was did which was which was good. And obviously,
Wes: I don’t think I was actively looking for a partner who wanted kids but I was really open to the point of like, yeah, I’ve got one already your kids would be great.
Stu Oakley: So where did the surrogacy idea come from? Was it always surrogacy with the both of you? Or was there a conversation about other ways to bring children into your life?
Wes: Yeah, I think we did. We did look at a lots of options. But I think because I already had a biological child from a previous relationship, Michael saw the bond that we had, and I’d always wanted a biological child of his own. So I think we discounted some of those other routes quite actually quite early because you know, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with admitting that you want a child a biological child of your own. So we started explore a we Michael started exploring that all of the routes available to us and how we would you know, make I would dream a reality around and it ultimately ended up that we were going to look at surrogacy.
Michael: Yeah, so that involved is like three and a half years of research, you know, looking at the International surrogacy arena. And at the time, you could still explore surrogacy in Thailand and India and Nepal, Cambodia, Mexico, the US, Canada, and slowly but surely each one of those countries were either unsafe or exploiting women, or just not LGBT friendly or really expensive. So we then revisited what the UK option would look like. And we explore the not for profits that operate within surrogacy in the UK. So you’ve got and there are several but the main three, surrogacy UK, brilliant beginnings and cots.
Stu Oakley: So what’s their kind of purpose scope, as I’m an adoptive father, and and part of the reason for this podcast is just to learn more about the different communities that we have and the different options that are available and so, what are the what are the non for profit.
Michael: So, what they do is they essentially not all of them operate the same, but they they provide a signpost information on where surrogates may be and where intended parents maybe, and a couple of them offer a matching service and some of them operate a networking service. So, you go on social events and there are surrogates there and intended parents there and the aim is that you you get to know one another, you form a bond, and then you you get to know them and then you embark on a surrogacy journey and costs for that vary from an application fee to a matching fee. But this was back in 2014 2015. And back then the ratio of intended parents versus surrogates was totally out of balance. So The books were closed to intended parents because it wasn’t just going to be possible. So that left us to go down what’s known as the independent route. So within surrogacy, you’ve got your not for profit, so your agencies and then you’ve got the independent route. So we went independent and because we built up so much research and gleaned all this information, we then the right okay, so we need to find a clinic, find an egg donor, find a surrogate, and that’s when the journey really began. Yeah.
Stu Oakley: So how long was that journey between deciding that and then getting pregnant with
Michael: with Talulah, it was probably nearly nine months getting to know our surrogate. So once we put ourself out there, yeah. But she contacted us
Wes: and it’s a bit like dating it. Yeah, it’s exactly like we as a profile, they create a profile, you kind of communicates and you look, you know, you kind of sound like yeah, we would like to start exploring options. Then we start communicating. I say we again But I remember first meeting, I was a husband, we went to dinner and we just kind of started talking. And it is all about having that connection. And it’s about having, you know, feeling comfortable. And, and Mike and I have this theme through our relationship, and it’s all about it just felt right. So we go on this feeling. So, you know, and it just always felt right. And then he came to the point where, you know, they were like, yeah, we want to do this. And then
there’s a nine month process. Yeah. And really getting to know.
Michael : Yeah, and and, you know, the minimum, what’s recommended is that the majority of intended parents and surrogates spend around about between 12 to 15 weeks getting to know Yeah, and then by that point, you would have formed an opinion or, or an understanding whether that’s going to be for you, because you’ve got to have such trust, trust and yeah,
Wes: you have to have a relationship and you have to be able to trust them. And you have to be able to know that you’re all on the same page because that’s a really essential part of surrogacy is all been on the same page and on being really clear about expectations and what is you know how this This journey is going to proceed.
Michael: So we had chosen a clinic in Manchester capital city and they were LGBT friendly. They had a really good surrogacy program, they could source an egg donor,
Stu Oakley: So your surrogate wasn’t providing an egg.
Michael: So that is called traditional surrogacy. So when a surrogate provides the egg, that’s traditional surrogacy we wanted an egg donor, because we felt that was right for us and for our journey. We also wanted to, we’re using my sperm first. So if Wes and I could have children together, we wanted to find the egg donor that matched Wes’s characteristics and facial features. So blonde, blue fair, yeah. And the clinic went on that journey for us and they found us a donor within sort of four months. And then the, the fertilization of the embryos was done in the clinic and they were they were Now, surrogate ready and her cycle ready to do as transfer and embryo transfer. So we’re really, really lucky that we got three, what’s called blastocysts, which is the best embryo that you can get. So we managed to get three of those out of a four embryo for egg retrieval. And then we did a we did a transfer on it was Valentine’s weekend of 2016. We were about to go skiing the next day and we did our embryo transfer. We went off skiing, and then you have what’s known as this
Stu Oakley: when you say transfer, that’s when the embryos put back inside. Yes. Right. And are you there? Yeah, back then. And you’re with your surrogate
Wes: At that point. Yeah. So
Michael: we were there at conception, and you literally watch it get fed into the uterus, and just implanted on the wall and then left, then you get a picture of that. I was gonna say you got it. framed. Yeah, I’ve got a picture and a video of it developing into us into a blastocyst. We’ve got like that first selfie of Talulah development. That’s incredible. Amazing.
Wes : The science around fertility is amazing. And so what they can do these days and how they can help create families is edible.
Michael : So you then have what’s known as the two week Wait, and as surrogates, we were skiing and she messaged us.
Wes: She didn’t want to wait for 14 days. I
Michael : think she waited about seven. And she was like, can you talk? And I’m like, yeah, of course we can talk. And then the picture just popped up. And it was this because we had
Wes: a whatsapp group for me always constantly communicate, and then this picture of a pregnancy test popped up. And it was a positive one. Wow. But it was still very early days. Yeah. So we just kind of kept our cool and then the next day she sent another one and the line was getting stronger and stronger, which is an indication that it’s a positive results. So So yeah,
Michael: and then that’s when our life changed.
Stu Oakley: So that’s so that’s quite incredible, isn’t it that
the first so the first try.
Michael: And that’s mainly because we’re a couple with no fertility issues. You’re using egg donor that’s under the age of 30. Yeah, your surrogate is fertile. Yeah. And on and on fertility drugs. Yeah. And your sperm is healthy and has good mobility, good motility, and performs well.
Stu Oakley: But then you said you weren’t lucky necessarily with Duke first time round? No, that’s right. Well,
Wes: yeah. So we we decided to go again, I was gonna say I jumped right ahead. And so many other things. And we at the beginning of the journey, we always said that we would have to and that then, the next attempt would be, we would use my sperm and we were trying much Yeah, Michaels features to our egg donor. Because was that a decision? For the first time around? Was that a hard thing to decide? No, it wasn’t his batum it would be in his biological No, and I think often that can be quite a complex situation for couples. I think for us, it was very straightforward because I already had a biological child. And, you know, that kind of steered the way of our decision. And that was, you know, yeah, never really give it any more thought than that. And then we did the egg donor that we use for Talulah. We agreed to do a sibling journey with that donor, and she was happy to do it. So we would have our children would have that biological lack. But unfortunately, the actor that we did use, she got ill after we had to Talulah. And what we should have done is created embryos from both of us at the start at that time, but so we had to then look for another donor, which, you know, took us a little bit longer, and we again, match them to Michael’s characteristics, and we didn’t an implantation and it wasn’t successful. And that you know, this happens. And I think we because we were so lucky with Talulah, we just had an expectation that it would work first time so we were actually really disappointed.
Stu Oakley: Yeah, like you weren’t ready for that kind of
Michael: We were massively underprepared for how and then so we got a glimpse of the gruelling road. Yeah, it can be fertility treatment and struggling to conceive we got it’s tough on your marriage on your relationship on your finances. Yeah. And it just affects everybody around you because we thought, this is gonna be a breeze let’s you know, we’ve we’ve got this and we didn’t have this at all it was we not only lost that transfer, but we then also lost every single embryo and egg that we retrieved.
Wes: So, which is quite rare. Actually, we haven’t often you might, you might have, you know, for four or five years one might get implanted, and then that that doesn’t work, but then you’ve got others to fall back on, where in this scenario, we lost them all. So there was clearly some compatibility issues with the donor. So we then kind of took stock of what happened The clinic that we were using at the time, there was quite a then wait for a feather egg donor to change over. So we just our surrogate was all ready to go, we were ready to go. We just didn’t want to wait another six months. So we then looked for another clinic who had an egg bank who had the characteristics of an egg that we needed. So we then moved from a Manchester clinic up to We’re sorry, down to a London clinic and really started the process again, which happened pretty quickly. Yeah. implantation work first time.
Michael: So we were really lucky and then as a result of that, you know, Duke was conceived and last week wait for Duke fell on New Year’s Eve. So we’re like, all the dates this Who is this going to be? How are we going to be feeling so we The great thing was we didn’t have any expectation this time. We were like, you know what?
Stu Oakley: Yeah, we’ve got that you’d been up and then down to now the only way was back up Really? Yeah.
Wes: And also On this one, we use the known donor for our egg donor. So we have a friend who we created a relationship just over time going through our fertility journey. And she was really She works in the fertility industry and she was really keen to become a donor because she sees so many people who go through you know, struggles and this for her was a way that she could help and she’s you know, very clinically minded so for her she was done it in a few cells. That’s it. That’s it.
Stu Oakley: How will you communicate that to Duke in the future especially with us because Talulah is is an unknown donor?
Michael: And and I’ll be honest, that’s something that plays on my mind a lot. Because, you know, Katie knows her mom and a dad obviously, and Talulah will know that she’s got two daddies. But because of egg donation in the UK is classed as non anonymous. Sounds strange. Yes, non anonymous means it’s anonymous at points. donation, and then went to the turn 16 she’ll gets some non identifiable criteria about the donor point of where she was at the point of donation etc. And then at 18 Talulah can have full disclosure if she wants to have it, Dukes will know the origin of both his egg donor and his biological father. And Talulah is going to be in limbo a little bit. So that is something that as dads we just need to manage, and hopefully, you know, as the work that we’re doing, as two dads and everything else that we’re doing in terms of educating everybody else about don’t conceive children and fertility generally, it may not be the big issue that I fear it could.
Wes: And I think you know, Talulah knows that she knows she’s different from some of the other kids in her nursery. And I think as she grows up, she’s always going to know that and it’s very obvious that you know, we didn’t give birth to her, so we’re gonna have to explain and to Duke you know, that those things are going to have to be explained, but I think it’s, it’s all about the appropriate At time, and we were very open for our kids until it asks lots of questions now as an inquisitive three year old, and we just answer them the best we can. Yeah,
Michael: you know. So while she’s three, she switched on and she’s asking, you know, the whys and yeah, everything’s followed with a why and you need to bear ourselves for it. And
Stu Oakley: Just going back as well, your surrogate was the surrogate the same, or they use the same surrogate for both. We did so going through that process with Duke where there was the times where it wasn’t working with the surrogate. I mean, something that Lottie wants me to ask actually, was that because her and her wife have been to our UI, okay, so to conceive that their child and potentially future children and her point of view is as a woman, it can feel as though your body has actually let you down and there’s a whole you know, thing about, you know, feeling some kind of blame or feeling that your body’s letting you down, but her question kind of to you, too is like, how do you process that when it’s somebody else’s body? And it was that ever an issue that came up with a surrogate? I do remember having the conversation around because I was so good because she had such a textbook pregnancy with Talulah, and then the first not not to do but that the what the failed attempt. She took that very hard because I think she blamed herself a lot. And she ever had any failed attempts, no fault of her own, or that was a new feeling for her.
Michael: She said she felt responsible and I remember getting the message from her apologising and I’m like, Don’t apologise. This isn’t this isn’t you?
Wes: And also, I think it’s about you know, reiterating that fertility is is is no exact science. It’s you know, you’re at the hands of Mother Nature. Yeah, unfortunately, and no one can see it’s never a guarantee. And you know, we had to just be just get on with it really in terms of helping to manage Because I was surrogate like us expected it to happen first time. Yeah. And when it didn’t she shocked. Yes. Yeah. And you know, and she felt responsible. And we just had to help manage that. And we I remember, we were very disappointed and upset. But, you know, I think mentally you have to prepare yourself for failure. And if you’re lucky, it doesn’t happen. But often sometimes it does,
Stu Oakley: which is nice in their shared journey as well.
Michael : Right. Yeah. Really. And that’s, and that’s what she wanted. Yeah, I wanted to do a sibling journey. Yeah.
Wes: And very quickly, after Talulah, she was very kind of like, in a give me a bit of time to recover. But yes, I definitely want to do this. And she was very open with us right from the start that, you know, she wanted to help us create, and she knew, you know, it’s all part of that communication before you enter into this relationship is that she knew that, you know, we wanted more than one child so you know, and she was more than happy. And it’s all about her family supporting it as well because you know, surrogate doesn’t go through this on her own, she has to have the support of their family to achieve it. And you know, we’re really grateful it’s not we’re really grateful for our whole family because, you know, being a surrogate does put strain on, you know, their relationship with their partners, and with their children. It does alter the family dynamic throughout the pregnancy. And we have to be very mindful of that. And we have to be very respectful of that as well. But also acknowledge the, the challenges that it brings to the rest of the family. Yeah.
Stu Oakley: And then on the other end of it, so as of yesterday, you had a hearing we did, but talk to me about what the hearing is like, what is that? What is that process? Okay?
Michael: So, surrogacy in the UK is underpinned by something called the surrogacy arrangements act of 1985. The very nature of when it was produced was, you know, at the height of the SEC section 28. So not particularly friendly to our community. Yeah. And it has evolved in there, there have been updates to But what that basically means is that in this country, a woman that gives birth to a child is classed as the legal parents, the legal mother. And if she’s married, he is the legal father, regardless of biology. So our surrogate wasn’t biologically related to our children, yet the law states, she’s the legal parent, and her husband is the legal father. So you have to go through a parental order, but you can’t make that application until the child six weeks and one day old, right, that gives the surrogate a reasonable time to object or not to give consent, of which she has a much longer period. But there’s a six week window before you can get your application into the court.
Wes: And essentially, what your application is, is it’s about changing parental responsibility from the surrogate and her husband over to us, and that’s what, you know, six weeks in one day after Duke was born, we had to then submit a parental order application
Michael: A lot of this time we don’t have a sponsor, which again
Stu Oakley: goes back to why it’s so key that you have such a relationship with.
Michael: And you know, the breakdown of surrogacy relationships in the UK is really, really rare. I think in in 30 years, there have been I think there’s less than 10 High Court cases where it’s where it’s, yeah, on horrifically wrong. Yeah.
Stu Oakley: So say what do you have to do? Like, is there
Wes: Essentially even though we are the biological father, we still wouldn’t be able to give consent, which is quite a concern,
Michael: which is just ridiculous. Insane. And that’s why the law is being reformed.
Stu Oakley: Yes. So that’s been in the news fairly recently. Yeah. So what’s the reforms that they’re making, so there’s a good enough?
Michael: I think there are still, there are still improvements that could be made. Generally, if you get your application in six weeks and one day, by the time your child’s around about five months old, you will be the legal parent of that and you’ll apply for a new birth certificate and you’ll get all of that paperwork But the law reform, you know, we’ve been quite involved in the in the reform, and there are some improvements. So parental responsibility at birth is one of the improvements. You may have heard yesterday that one of the points being discussed was the lifting the ban on advertising for surrogates on social media, where at the moment that’s illegal, yeah. That the cost and whether expenses or the model should move to a commercial model has been debated and discussed. It surrogacy in the UK is altruistic which means the surrogate is reimbursed reasonable expenses, which can vary from nothing to 15 to 20,000 pounds per pregnancy. The average is between 12 and 15,000 pounds.
Stu Oakley: And what is deemed within those expenses then what’s the
Michael: So it can be child care of they already have children, it could be loss of earnings of earnings. It can be medical expenses.
Michael: It could be takeaways. It could be food preparation, it could be a cleaner, a gardener, anything that they’re going to need, because they’re pregnant and can’t look after their own family. So that’s why it varies significantly. So the expenses is still to be clarified of what’s going to happen with that particular topic. But the the parental responsibility is is the biggest and that looks like that has been discussed and debated. So there are there are some improvements, but this there’s still some things that could be improved and improved. Yeah,
Wes: I think the challenges is never going to be everything to everyone. And there’s going to be some compromises along the way because you are dealing with lots of different communities have lots of different needs and wants and trying to get a law that meets all of those objection objectives is going to be quite complex.
Stu Oakley: Okay, so what would you wish you had known before you’d started this journey, way back when when you were first looking at getting to Lula like what
Wes : I think to start with, I think having a lot of the information accessible in one place would be a massive advantage. We had to go to all different routes and it took us a long time to do that. And I think I think we would have started it sooner.
Michael: Yeah, I’d agree. I think the time scale, the average time scale from deciding you want to go in a surrogacy journey to holding your child. That’s a two year period. Yeah, I think I underestimated the, the, the emotion and what that can do to a relationship going through that treatment. That was I wish someone would have said, you know, really take care of your marriage whilst you’re on this journey, because it’s going to be really gruelling, and you don’t have that you mastered Oh, yes. So and, you know, resentment can easily slide in. You know, it’s someone mentioned something quite recently and they let you know Put your marriage first because that’s what needs to be really solid. And you know, you’ve always look after your kids but put that first
Wes: but yeah, you’re strong and you get through it, but it but you know, it has it did push our relationship to the limits at times. And you know, I think it’s fair to acknowledge that but I think it’s we’ve come out stronger
Michael: yeah we have I love watching Wes parent our kids I think there’s nothing more attractive than seeing seeing that in yeah and I you kind of display for for them again become seen them in a different light with our kids and that special.
Wes : Yeah, let’s not underestimate you know, having children is one of the most amazing things in the world and the joy that they bring to you daily is you know, it’s worth all of the challenges and the rough night’s sleep and, you know, went to little weights in the morning and she told me that she loves me and she beams it’s just can’t be that. No you can’t. It’s it’s you know it’s special.
Stu Oakley: Oh guys, what do you call yourselves in your family
Wes : We as, we decided was that we were going to let our kids decide what they call us. And we both want to be dads and we both want to be daddy. And it’s amazing because Talulah she calls his birthday. And when we’re both together she’ll say one Daddy wants the other Daddy, and she flips it around so we’re both other daddy at some point on my birthday. So
Michael: the wrong daddy go should go no other day or next day. Where’s next day next day?
Stu Oakley: Love it. Um, where can we find you? Where are you online? What’s
Michael: the you can find us? So website is www.twodadsuk.com And on Facebook and Instagram. We are two dads. Okay. And we’re on Twitter, which is to daddy’s UK. And we have a podcast coming out which is to dads talk. Amazing. More to the podcast community.
Stu Oakley: Great. Well, thank you so much, guys. And it was lovely to meet you both.
Wes: We love doing this kind of stuff. Thank you.
Lotte Jeffs: One of the things that I really was interested by was the dynamic between the married gay male couple and their female surrogate and particularly the kind of manners and the very British like politeness and like, you know, do you guys do wait for the entree before you go straight into the like, will you have my baby thing hundred percent, and there must be
Stu Oakley: So many of those moments throughout the process and there must be a point where you just have to become so entwined with that person and and have that love. And the one thing I think speaking to a lot of people about all their different types of journeys, is the trust that you have to put into other people that are not necessarily your life partners or your spouse. You know, whether it’s a co parenting journey that you’re doing with a friend and having the trust with them or whether it’s the trust you have in a surrogate, yes,
Lotte Jeffs: Particularly In the the legal ramifications of it and the fact that then they need to apply for the parenting order, you know that that that six weeks that they’re waiting before they can become or apply to become the legal parents must be agonising and things are changing with the last and the one thing I learned to be interviewed I didn’t know was I didn’t realise that even the husband or partner of the circa also has parental responsibility. It’s mad, isn’t it? And I wonder as well how much of a relationship or not you want to keep up with the surrogate after the children are born? What would you do if you use a surrogate? Would you want the surrogate to be part of your kid’s life or I think although I think actually 100% because looking at it from how we’ve approached our parenting journey through adoption, obviously, we have foster parents, who whilst they’ve not given birth, so for example, the foster
Stu Oakley: Parents of our eldest son, even though they didn’t give birth to him, obviously, they cared for him since he was a few days old until he was about six months. So they were there to look after and be part of his life. So therefore we would want them to that they are always going to be part of our lives and a part of our children’s lives. They are part of the family. And I’d imagine from a surrogacy point of view, it’s a similar feelings, but you know, that is part of their life story that is part of your child’s journey, and so it can’t be erased. And also looking ahead to the future when that child is 18. And plus, they may want to know who the person was that gave birth to them.
Lotte Jeffs: Again, back to something we’ve talked about a lot on this show is how kind of emotionally intelligent and robust and thoughtful you kind of have to be as a as a parent during a queer parenting journey. You kind of have to really stay and really Be kind of just okay with everything. And it’s hard sometimes, you know, because sometimes you might just be like, well, I don’t want my kid to, to, to know they’re sorry, I don’t want them to have a relationship with anyone other than us. I just want to be the parent with my husband or my wife. And that’s on the flip
Stu Oakley: With, would you? If the question was put back to you Lottie? Would you? Would you want to know the surrogate and have the surrogate in your life?
Lotte Jeffs: Honestly, I’m not sure I would just based on like my experience of using a sperm donor and feeling like I’m really happy that we use an anonymous donor and they don’t have anything to do with our our day to day lives and our upbringing, but there’s a sort of vague sense that if my daughter wants to find out when she’s older she can and I’m absolutely fine with that. But there’s something just really nice about feeling it’s just the three of us or it’s just, we’re the only people maybe not selfish or do you think that then you can’t really compare them Since that sperm donor, you could argue is just cells and DNA.
Stu Oakley: Yeah. Whereas somebody who’s actually had you grow inside them. Yeah.
And and gone through the birthing journey with you, that that’s somebody you would want to potentially have a connection with, if you could.
Yeah,
Lotte Jeffs: when you put it like that, I guess. So I think I suppose it’s changing your mindset and not thinking we’ve done we’ve had to have a baby in this particular way. But we want to do everything we can to forget that we had to have a baby in this particular way and just pretend that we’re the perfect family that just had a baby in a heteronormative way if you just actually stopped thinking that and just embrace the kind of weird and wonderful route that you took. And actually, I suppose the only thing you can do is be open and honest and communicate and, and make mistakes. I suppose. It was interesting. I thought what Michael and Wes was saying about putting their marriage first. I think that’s true of all parenting, isn’t it a view and the other thing I think that’s drilled into you from a doctrine point of view is the child always has to come first to regardless of your feelings or how you feel about it, you just got to continually look at it through their eyes and how they’re going to feel in the future.
Stu Oakley: Right. Yeah. And I think then in that case that answers the question really doesn’t it when you when you do that, when you put that filter on it and how the child is going to feel like that child is going to want to know the truth and have been told it openly and honestly in it for it to not be a weird secret.
Lotte Jeffs: So yes, I think I’ve I’ve gone on a bit of a journey just through this conversation. And I yeah, I can now see it from that point of view. Definitely.
Stu Oakley:One of my absolute favourite things about the Michael was interview is I was introduced to the word blastocyst.
Lotte Jeffs: Blastocyst!
Stu Oakley: Sound like a superhero. like the Powerpuff. Girls. Thank you so much for listening, everybody, please stay strong. We are all here as one community. We’re all here to support each other,
Lotte Jeffs: Also to everybody that has emailed us or got in contact with us through Instagram, or Twitter already and told us that you’ve enjoyed the podcast. It’s been really, really great to hear and thank you for sharing your stories with us. We really appreciate it.
Stu Oakley: Yeah, it’s been amazing hearing from you all and we want to hear more. Again, if anybody has any questions. In the topic of surrogacy, we will be speaking to more people about surrogacy, but please send us your questions.
Lotte Jeffs: So you can follow us on Instagram at some families pod or you can drop us an email, old school an email at some families at storing to.co.uk
Stu Oakley: So let us know and if you enjoyed the episode, please do share it with people because we want to grow our community and we want to reach as many different families as we possibly can. Fortunately, we’re not together to virtually Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Take you hang out now I know you guys know you guys. I know you have.
Lotte Jeffs: Okay, bye bye