To celebrate World Book Day it’s Some Families inaugural book special! Lotte and Stu talk to different authors and illustrators about LGBTQ+ family books. Stu talks to Carolyn Robertson, author and owner of Sparklypoo Publications. Carolyn wrote Two Dads, that Will Young read on CBeebies Bedtime Stories. Lotte chats to Garry and Gareth, the illustrator and author of the new book, My Daddies, the first LGBTQ+ family book published by a major publishing house. They talk about how important it is for people to continue to write LGBTQ+ family books, just because there are some out there already, there is space for a lot more!
LINKS
My Daddies: https://amzn.to/3cEUm3o
Gareth: www.garethpeter.co.uk
Garry: www.garryparsons.co.uk
https://www.facebook.com/carolyncursive
BOOKS MENTIONED
My Daddies by Gareth Peter and Garry Parsons
Two Mums and a Menage and Two Dads by Carolyn Robertson
Julián Is a Mermaid by Jessica Love
The Argonauts by Maggie Nelson
The Proudest Blue: A Story of Hijab and Family by Ibtihaj Muhammad
Heather Has Two Mummies by Lesléa Newman
Princess Kevin by Michael Escoffier
Spacegirl Pukes and If I had 100 Mummies by Vanda Carter
Hello Sailor by Ingrid Godon
Full transcription below:
Stu: Welcome one and all to some families, the podcast that celebrates all LGBTQ plus families this week is world book day on the 4th of March. And we are using the opportunity, to finally celebrate one of our favourite things that we love to talk about. It’s books.
Lotte: It is it’s book week and this is our book special episode. Hello. I’m Lotte by the way.
Stu: and I am Stu hello,
Lotte: Just quickly on book week.
My daughter’s not of an age yet that we have to dress her up as anything and take her anywhere. But do you have that stress that I see on Instagram of parents being like, yeah. Ah, he’s he booked, we can, we’re done forgot about it. And we’ve got to put like, put a hat on her and say, she’s the cat in the hat.
Stu: Yeah, so this year I’ve been really excited for, but it’s kind of crept on us too quickly again. And you’ve reminded me that tomorrow. I need to get my Amazon prime order in is that last year. And it completely missed out on it. I was desperate to dress the kids up because, because we’ve got three of them and because of their ages, I’m desperate, stress them up was Wendy, Michael and John from Peter pan
Lotte: Oh, nice.
Stu: simple. And we’ve got like the nana dog.
Lotte: Oh, I can’t wait to see the pictures of that.
Stu: Yeah, I think I need to make it happen. Thank you for the reminder. I might just, I might just pop off the near to mid podcast
Lotte: Yeah. If we lose Stu he’s,
Stu: That’s where I am. What would you do? What would your daughter,
Lotte: Oh, my
Stu: would be the outfit?
Lotte: she’d have to be
Stu: A gentle woman.
Lotte: no, she’s the complete opposite. She’s like, we’d have to be some completely rambunctious wild child, and she could be max in where the wild things are. She’d be really good at that
Stu: I have Uh, max one Z, in my wardrobe
Lotte: for yourself.
Stu: yes, but myself, I don’t think it would fit your daughter. It was from a campaign I did years ago. We digressed. I’m really excited to be talking to you about books, Lottie, because I feel this has been a long time coming for us.
And this is definitely the first of many specials that I think that we will do around the subjects of books.
Lotte: Yes, we spoke about it before Christmas. Didn’t we? So if you haven’t listened to this already, um, go and listen to our Christmas episode. If you’re feeling like you want to relive the joy of Christmas, because we had a good fun chat and recommended some books in that episode.
Stu: Yeah, there are so many books that are just, that are perfect for LGBTQ plus families. We wanted to celebrate an established book that’s out there and also a new book that is coming. So in order to do this Lottie and I we’ve split up this week,
Lotte: Don’t worry, everyone. we’re getting back together. Yeah.
Stu: It’s not an uncoupling. But we became roaming reporters. and, we’ve chatted some to some wonderful authors, to get the lay of the land of what it takes to write an LGBTQ plus children’s book. And I spoke to Carolyn Robertson who I was really excited to speak to for those who don’t know wrote, and self-published two mums and a menagerie and to death,
Lotte: And I spoke to Gary and Garath who have a new book coming out called two daddies. And it’s published by penguin random house. And it’s one of the first major publishing houses to publish an LGBTQ plus.
Stu: Here bro. Well done penguin. Well done. Before we share on the raid reports, Lottie, I just want to check in what are some of the favorite books that you’re reading at the moment, either to yourself or to your daughter?
Lotte: okay. Well, my daughter is obsessed with books too. She’s two and a half and we. I have to put her in bed at night with a book and she just sits up on her own. She can’t read obviously, but she would just sit with the book and she’s really into lift the flat books at the moment, but she lifts the flaps, like so efficiently.
And she just like reads the same book. Yeah. Over and over and over again, making up the story as she goes. So she kind of, I mean, both her parents are writers, so maybe this is our influence, but if we start reading a book to her, she gets angry with us and wants to read it herself,
Stu: she is a padding. She’s a budding Wolfer.
Lotte: be, yeah, she does love telling stories. so. At the moment we’ve sort of women like lift the flat book land, and I have yet to find a lift the flat book that in any way, celebrates LGBTQ plus families, you could have one that you could have like Lyft who’s under the flap. It’s a gay adoptive, single dad.
Stu: duh.
Lotte: um, so, but the book that she loves that does have a family that I think she relates to you is called Heather has two mommies. And, it’s a picture book that was published in 2015. So it’s actually quite old come to think of it. And it’s by, a woman called Leslie Newman. And it’s just a really sweet story.
And she has two mommies and she goes to school and everybody talks about, there are different kinds of families,
Stu: are they? Mommy’s
Lotte: their mommies, yeah, their mommies. But then I also, I wanted to talk about a book for grownups, that I’ve read, that I think is truly fantastic.
it’s quite, intellectual. Read it’s called the Argonauts and it’s by a writer called Maggie Nelson. And I read it before my daughter was born and she is, in a relationship with a gender non conforming person who, has a child already. And then she goes through IVF and they have a child, but the way she talks about bodies and pregnancy and being queer and, She brings in a lot of like literary theory, philosophy psychoanalysis, and the writing itself is really lyrical And she quotes a lot of like Roland Barts and, critical thinking. So it’s a really, really interesting and wonderful book and I’d really recommend people read it. And also of course, Alexandra Hemmons Lee’s book, somebody to love that. I think I also spoke about in our Christmas episode. And is the story of her husband transitioning from male, female just after her, first child was born. So that’s also a great read for
Stu: I’m really looking forward to reading that one.
Lotte: What about use G what, what are you reading to the kids or reading yourself?
Stu: we got the kids, a home later books for Crispus and there’s one actually that I just want to shout out. It’s not an LGBTQ plus book. but it was one that I thought was, was great to mention because I really love it. And the kids really love it as well. It’s called the proudest blue and I don’t know if you’ve heard of
Lotte: No, what’s that about?
Stu: written by, an Olympian.
IPTV has, are Mohammed
I hope I pronounced your name correctly. It’s about a little girl who watches her sister, go to school, wearing her hijab for the first time and watches her sister get bullied within the school. And it’s just this really beautiful book about acceptance.
and also how the, a child who is potentially, faced with adversity at school, through, through having something different about them, can overcome that. it’s beautifully illustrated. It’s beautifully told. and the kids absolutely love it as well. So I just wanted to share that one
Lotte: That sounds great. I will definitely add that to my list.
Stu: The other one is one. Actually we did talk about on our Christmas episode as well, plug plug, go back and listen. Uh, there is princess Kevin, which since the Christmas episode I read with my son, All the time and he loves it. And it’s about a little boy who wants to dress up as a princess.
Uh, his, uh, school’s kind of, it’s like their book day where everyone comes dressed in as a particular character. it’s really gorgeous. And it’s got a twist at the end as well. I mean, it’s not really a twist, it’s a kid’s book, but it’s still super sweet. And I think it’s really resonating for him because if you remember listener, he does like to wear dresses himself.
So it’s kind of validated his own being as it were by, by, seeing himself represented in print in princess, Kevin bless
Lotte: Oh, that’s, what’s so great about reading picture books with children is just opportunities for them to see themselves as something they relate to. I think it’s, it is so powerful.
Stu: Yeah, so Lottie, I got to, um, speak to Carolyn Robertson, who I’ve been, as I said, I’ve been really speaking to her cause she wrote the book to dads. That is popular in our house. It’s been one of our longest books that we’ve had, and we talked to her about the book, and how she set up her own publishing company, which is called sparkly, pu the cluelessness is in the name.
Carolyn: Some families look completely different from each other, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t love each other to the moon and back.
Stu: welcome Carolyn to some families. Hello.
Carolyn: Hello. Lovely to meet you.
Stu: Lovely to meet you too. I actually wanted to start Carolyn. I wanted to show you something.
So this is our second copy. And for listener at home, I am sharing Carolyn. My dog-eared roughed up. Copy. Second copy. I might add of two dads, which as you can see, and I don’t know if you can quite see via the, by the camera. Carolyn is so battered up because we have read it so many times
Carolyn: Oh, that’s wonderful.
Stu: I, my kids literally know it off by heart.
And so I just want to kickstart by saying a huge thank you because your book does mean an awful lot to us in our family. And, and it’s really like the word adoption just rolls off the tongue of my children now, and that it’s just such a wonderful tool.
Carolyn: Well, that’s really lovely. Thank you.
Stu: For, not just our family, but every family out there. but before we jump into all of your wonderful publishing, adventures, do you want to start by introducing yourself to our listener and tell them a little bit about who you are?
Carolyn: I am Carolyn Robertson and, I was formally a teacher, and then we adopted our first son. Gosh, he’s 13 now. He’s huge. we adopted him when he was just, uh, just under one. then I think I’ve worked about four or five years more, and then we adopted our second son. and after that, I decided to, uh, give up teaching.
It was just a bit too difficult and. I was a bit bored at home because, uh, Parenthood is, is wonderful, but it’s also really monotonous and boring at times. I just needed to keep my mind busy. And as a primary school teacher, one thing that was really important to me was books and sharing books. And I couldn’t find anything for our types of family.
I thought, well, I’ll have a go at, might writing my own. And that’s how I came, to be, uh, an author of kids books.
Stu: Which was the first book that you wrote?
Carolyn: And she wrote two doubts first. and the reason why I did that was because two very close friends of mine had adopted a little boy, And, um, I just saw them together. And, um, what I felt was. There was nothing to reflect just how lovely, how lovely their family setup was.
And to see two men in such a loving environment was incredible. And I wanted that to be reflected. And so I mess around with some ideas and I did the two, the two dads book first, and then something for my boys as well, which was the, two moms a minute and a menagerie.
Stu: so you wrote the books. So then what happened next? Because I guess, you know, from my understanding and what you’ve just said, you, you didn’t have any particular knowledge of the publishing and shit or contacts within the publishing industry
Carolyn: no, I didn’t. Well, I didn’t, other than the fact that I did a decent knowledge of what a good a book, cause after being a primary school teacher for so long. And, um, I think, uh, actually I do remember I gave it to a mutual friend who was a, a niche publisher, obviously not that niche. And he said to me, Uh, it’s too niche.
It won’t sell how wrong he was. he said if it was a book just about, um, two dads or two moms, you said, I could imagine it’s selling it to put, because you’ve mentioned adoption. I don’t think it will sell as well. And actually the adoption part was. The most important bit for me, because that’s what was really missing in the market.
There was, you know, I wanted to celebrate our, our families because they are very unique. and that’s why I was like, okay, uh, he looks at my book, sat on it for about six months and he said, Oh, I don’t think it’s good, but I’m not sure that we can find a publishing house for it. And so I ended up.
Uh, setting up spotty poo publications. And, um, I found an illustrator who was my best friend from primary school. Sister-in-law I put the book together and, and then I found different ways of, of printing at this printing companies Spotty people, publications.
Stu: I love the name spike. Where did, where did the name sparkly pier come from?
Carolyn: Well, my youngest son, he still has this now he’s that he’s actually autistic, but he, uh, when he was very little, he had to think about, he used to imbibe everything. He would eat absolutely everything that came his way. And so whenever I picked him up from nursery, that’d be green poos or red poos or.
And one day he ate a whole tip of glitter was just, yeah, it was, it was incredible. So, um, yeah, he’s he’s poo was sparkly and, um, I just thought it was such a funny, funny story in a funny name. So that’s where it came from Sparky, but I’ve since found out though that people actually do that. You can buy capsules too, but anyway,
Stu: No. you can buy capsules to make your pier sparkly.
Carolyn: Allegedly. So I’ve since been told, that, wasn’t where I was going with it, obviously.
Stu: I So you, you put it out yourself, which is amazing and you create spark to it. When did success kind of come then? And, and how did it start getting noticed?
Carolyn: well really quite quickly at two, it was quite an organic process, but it really was, I think the first book of its kind. And when we first adopted, uh, our eldest son, It was quite in the early days of LGBT adoption. I was kind of like one of the first, earlier members of I’m sure you’ve heard of new family social, the, um, yeah.
so I was there with Andy who set it up. it was only like, Been going two years at that point. And so gay adoptions, wasn’t really a thing. and so when the book did come out, um, and you loads of families straight away from a new family social, and then it kind of just spawned. And I, learned how to use Twitter, and so that it became bigger from that.
And, and then it got into the States. And I actually went, we went for my mom’s 70th birthday, my brother and I took it to New York and I went with armed force of books and I went to all the different centers I could and gave them copies and said, please review. And, that was a way of getting it noticed.
then. Unbelievably, I got a phone call from, the BBC and saying that they wanted to feature on the program, which was incredible. So that’s how we ended up on the CBBC or CBeebies
Stu: was that? When will young read
Carolyn: Yeah, yeah,
Stu: And that was such a big moment in time. I remember because, I mean, it was. You know, not too distant history, but you know, it was such a, I think a moment for CBeebies to really show diversity within some of the, the output that they’re putting out there for, for families.
Carolyn: Yeah, it was,
Stu: and we love will young.
So when did two dads get published? That was 2014.
Carolyn: yeah,
Stu: So how have you since, since that time, so, wow. Seven, seven years ago in my, my says good. Um, seven years ago.
How have you seen the industry change since you first.
Carolyn: There’s a lot more books for our types of families which is amazing. I don’t think you can’t have enough. Cause the issue is our families need to have the same type of. Representation as all other kind of like heteronormative families. I mean, why not? Why, why is it that you’re going to a classroom and see loads of books about moms and dads and that’s the norm.
And yet there’s nothing with two dads or two moms. So now there are, there are, there are, there are a lot more out there and I think that’s fantastic. I totally applaud it and think it’s great. And. I hope that they become kind of like, well loved classics and kids from any background could just pick it up and look at the book and think it’s normal.
It’s now one in six adoptions in the UK is, to LGBT families. So that’s a huge population of children coming up.
Stu: And even regardless of the amount of families out there, you know, the fact that we as families are out there. I feel it’s, it’s, it’s so important to have that representation to any child to understand that there are so many different types of families, that they could encounter at any point during their life, or they could even become at some point in their life.
Carolyn: and children don’t really judge. I don’t I’ve I’ve not found any judgment from the kids. It’s the only judgment that’s ever been about the books. It’s always been from other adults. I mean, children are very accepting about different types of family setups. It’s just normal to them.
Stu: I mean, it’s been a very positive story. have you had any challenges from, people, along the way, you know, you mentioned you found how to use Twitter, but that’s notoriously,
Carolyn: Yeah.
Stu: a hideous cesspit of, uh, of opinion sometimes, how have you navigated that and have you had any,
Carolyn: Yeah, I did. After the Williams thing, there was quite a lot of trolling actually got a bit nasty. there was a piece that was cause quite a lot of press pieces came out and I’m from Leeds originally. And there was one from the Yorkshire evening post, and I used to work for the Yorkshire evening post and it popped up.
Underneath the comments section really nasty comments, that will young about the fact that this there’s no way it should have been put on bedtime stories. And, uh, it was going to turn the nation gay and it was, it was sick. And I actually wrote a conversation piece afterwards for the paper and said, look, I used to work for you.
And I wrote an answer back to that. I just said, All the things I wanted to say, which is our families have got just as much right. To be represented as heterosexual families. I also pointed out that, you know, a lot of adopted children were actually removed from toxic heterosexual relationships. And nobody seems to notice that that’s what’s going on.
And, um, I felt, yeah, quite I’m glad I wrote that piece.
Stu: And thank you for, for doing so.
And with schools being a, being a parent yourself now and seeing. I mean, have you, have you seen a difference in the types of books that scores are representing within their, their classes and their libraries?
Carolyn: Yeah, I, I have generally, usually around, LGBT history month where you often get a, I get a big influx of orders at that point. And often I get some really lovely pictures of displays that people have done in the, in the classrooms and, or in the nurseries, also for adoption week, the same thing.
Sometimes I think always it just tokenistic is it just for this week, but a lot of times I can see that the books are in there. I’ve got a lot of friends who’ve come across my books in the kids, libraries at school, which I think is lovely. And he looked me
Stu: That’s really nice.
So for you, what other changes would you, would you want to see within the publishing industry to make it more diverse?
Carolyn: I do, I do know that it is, it’s harder to get your stuff noticed and the word niche is banded around all the time. and I find that. That’s what I, that makes it quite irritating because actually our families aren’t niche, you know, they’re normal families and I think they should open the doors a little bit more to being more diverse and you know, the same with them.
Be AME books as well. It’s about being conscious. I think schools have got to be conscious. And I think educational establishments from nurseries, right to the top, we’ve got to be conscious of how they’re representing the real world that we live in and publishing houses. You have to take some risks and start representing us and across the board.
And I mean, it was great. The CBeebies did what they did, I think. Did they do a top part because well, no, they did another one. I think maybe it was a family book that they did. I’d love them to do, uh, uh, to mum’s story as well. Pick up my two moms or any of the other two moms books naturally.
And I’d get, who would I get to
Stu: yeah, I was going to say, who would be your ideal narrator?
Carolyn: Um, Sue Perkins would be good. I think she’d be
Stu: Oh, yes.
Carolyn: Yeah, she’d be great.
Stu: okay. Well, we’re putting that out in a universe. That’s out there. So you paddock ins to read two mums on CBeebies. So then what advice would you give to anybody who is in that position of wanting to put their story out there or tell a story?
Carolyn: I would say, write it of a first base. First of all, is look at the books and your kids bookshelf and see which ones really, really work. Some really work and others not. I’ve got some well looked favorites that my case will be read over and over and over and over again. And others say read once or twice and that’s that’s them done.
So it’s kind of working out what the form formula is. For children’s books. And then the thing is, is just say, write it and then share it with friends. I mean, I shared it with friends and tweaked it and then I got somebody to edit it. And the only sounds really simple because it’s, you know, it’s, it’s a very simple book, but actually every word does count when you’re writing picture books and you’ve got to get the flow.
Right. And you’ve got to make sure the words. work well and can be understood and that there’s no ambiguity. So I would say do that and then look for ways of self publishing, a good quality book.
And also you can make digital copies of your books quite easily as well. So yeah, just go for it. I mean, the more the merrier as this billions and billions and billions of books out there, I had to a normative. So we need as many as possible for our types of families.
Stu: yeah. And I wanted to ask, so you’ve got, you’ve got one teenage boy.
And then how old is your other one?
Carolyn: He’s 10 now.
Stu: He’s 10. So I always love, especially whenever we speak to anybody on some families, who’ve got older children and especially in the teenage years, what’s it like having a teenager who’s been adopted and, and how has that kind of road been.
Been for you and your wife,
Carolyn: It’s been well, he’s adorable. Our oldest son is just, his is just gorgeous. he’s up quite a tricky road and just can’t go into any details of course, but he’s, uh, bit of a tricky road in terms of contact. we have always been very, very open and with life story work and all the rest of it.
And I would say because we have been very open from day one that he’s quite balanced about it. And. Talks through his openly about his adoption, his adoption. He’s got lots of adopted mates. I mean, that’s why new family social has been fantastic in terms of we’ve got an incredible base friends with similar aged children.
And so not being the only adopted kid, not being the only kid with two moms or two dads has been fantastic for him. And he’s really open, he’s quite proud and happy. I really was worried about the teenage years and those you’re going to kind of like school coughed to his room.
And he’s like, is that the end of cuddles? Is that the end of, you know, But he’s, he’s brilliant. He’s gorgeous. Have a lot of fun together. I’ve just introduced him to Schitt’s Creek, which he absolutely loves. So we’d be watching that as a family, over lockdown.
I don’t believe any of the rubbish about teenagers that they’re fab.
Stu: phew. That’s good to hear
I think that’s always a worry for people, you know, it’s a worry for myself and, I suppose it’s a worry for any parent about , how their child’s going to get through their teenage years. But, coming from it from an adoptive point of view, also coming to it from an LGBTQ plus point of view, as a parent, you do think, Oh, what is those?
What are those years going to be like? It’s always nice to hear such, such positives.
Carolyn: Yeah. I mean, he has a, got a good sense of who he is and when he does ask questions and some rough stuff comes up, we are able to talk to him very openly about it. I think my biggest piece of advice is just to seek out other adopters and other gay families. I really think that’s so important.
I actually, when we adopted, I always thought that the common denominator for us as parents would be seeking out two mums other two mum families. And that actually hasn’t been the common denominator. It’s the adoption. That’s been the common denominator. So I’ve got. a big breadth of friendships, but I know quite a lot of straight adopters as well, because there’s things that you want to talk about, which are so pertinent to your situation, whether it be, uh, contact, whether it be, you know, stuff coming up from the birth family, whether it be.
Things to do with identity. I know my son really, really wanted to know about where he came from. do your DNA, that was really important to him. We got that for his birthday last year, actually. Cause he just wanted, he always thought he was a Viking.
So, cause he’s very blonde hair and blue eyes, and he’s just like, I just want to know more about, about me and where I come from. And so, because we haven’t got any, any contact at the moment that was massively important to him. talking to other adopters about that, it’s so important sense of where am I from?
You know, where where’s my bloodline?
Stu: Makes a huge difference.
Carolyn: yeah.
Stu: And so this is part of our book episode. I want you to ask you Carolyn, you can obviously put one of your own books in, but if you were to name one of your favorite LGBTQ plus books for children, which one would it be?
Carolyn: Really, really, really like, and I don’t know whether the end print, but if I had a thousand mummies, And space girl pukes they’re great If I had a hundred mummies, I fired a hundred mummies.
They’re really good books.
Stu: I love it. I’ll look it up and listener will pop it into the show notes.
Carolyn: Fantastic.
Stu: Thank you for this Carolyn. And honestly, like I said, this book. Has been read so many times that the kids, honestly, they just absolutely love it. And they do say, or they do quote it back saying, you know, I’m rather special.
Cause both my dad’s adopted me and it’s so lovely.
Carolyn: well, that’s why I did it. Uh, families need to feel affirmed, so I’m so pleased.
Lotte: Was great. Stu so interesting. And I think it’s really, really interesting how she spoke about there never being enough, books about LGBTQ people, particularly families, because it’s so true. Like whenever I’m thinking, Oh, maybe I’ll do a children’s book. something that might stop me. As, for example, I saw the book you forwarded me about, pirate, mums, and I thought, Oh, someone’s written a book already about teen moms.
And I was like, no, hang on a second. There are so many books about moms and dads and you don’t think straight people stop themselves from writing a book about another mum and dad do. They are like, of course there’s room for all of us.
Stu: I think it’s something that’s across the whole queer spectrum as well. That even if you think about our podcast, you know, some families was the first UK, LGBTQ plus podcast.
Since we launched, you know, we’ve had Freddie McConnell who spoiler alert is coming up as a guest on this podcast, have his own podcast pride. Enjoy. there are hundreds of parenting podcasts out there. So why can’t you have two queer podcasts and where are the others? let’s have more because it’s all about celebrating and having as much representation as we possibly can.
just bringing it back to perks, I feel exactly the same as you Lottie. Like there can’t be, and as Karen said, there just can’t be too many LGBTQ plus family books. Why not?
Lotte: So back to our moving reports and I got to chat to Gary and Gareth who were the illustrator and the author. Of a new book coming out on April 1st called my daddies. they are both gay, adoptive dads. they’re not together just to be clear.
So welcome Gary and Gareth to some families. We are delighted to have you on the podcast.
Would you like to start by introducing yourselves
Garry: Hello? Uh, my name is Gary Parsons and I’m the illustrator of my daddy’s.
Gareth: Hey that I am Gareth Peter and I am the author of my daddy’s.
Lotte: So we’re talking to you today, about this book, which is coming out on the 1st of April and it’s published by Puffin and it’s good. My daddy’s and I absolutely love this book. I read it to my daughter and then I actually gave my copy of it to Stu my fabulous co-host who is the adoptive dad of three kids himself.
And I loved it, but could you start by telling us a bit about your families? Because I believe you were both, separately adoptive fathers yourself.
Gareth: It does get quite confusing with Gareth and Gary. Doesn’t it.
there are quite a lot of similarities, but yeah, I knew I always wanted to be a dad from when I was about 15 and 16, but growing up in the eighties and nineties, I never thought it was.
going to be something for me. But then section 28 got lifted.
And thankfully we were able to have the discussions about. Starting a family and looked at the different routes. we did explore a few possible routes, but for me, and especially my partner, the adoption route was, what we felt was right for us. And we’ve actually done it twice.
We’ve got two wonderful boys, one who is currently snuggled up in bed and other one who is, um, deep in YouTube,
Lotte: And how old are your kids now
Gareth: uh, seven and four.
Lotte: and how old were they when they came into your family?
Gareth: Okay. Roughly about 14 months each so that they, they were quite tiny.
Lotte: Okay. And Gary, what about you? What’s your family story?
Garry: My, my family story is really similar to Gareth’s. Uh, so I have, I have two boys. and, I think we were, we were on holiday, my partner and I in New York and we hired this big SUV. We were just thinking, you know, how you accommodate kids.
We could get in the back. And really the whole process started from there. my eldest, we adopted him in, 2012 then we adopted another boy who was nine months when he arrived. And that was in 2014. He came.
Lotte: So how old are the kids now?
Garry: they are 11 and eight, just gone. just go to eight. Yeah.
Lotte: Do they get on well,
Garry: that they get on us as brothers would do really.
Lotte: Is that the same fee?
Gareth: I feel my main job is not author or parent-teacher referee listening to some of your other podcasts and talking to lots of other. adopted people. I know it’s not just us that have got very active and very lively boys.
Lotte: Yeah. And especially in lockdown, I can imagine it’s quite a stressful, situation for you, both. so onto the book, my daddy’s, I’ll just describe the front cover for, for people listening. It’s too. Hadn’t some looking very nice looking chaps in a bright colored clothing, swinging a little toddler, up in between their arms doing what, whenever I try and do this with my daughter, my wife always tells me off and says, I’m going to pull her arm out of her socket.
and there’s a little dog jumping around. It’s a sunny day. It all looks very, very lovely and happy and, and it delic, Can you tell us a bit about the book, how you two brought together as a illustrator and author, and also where, the idea came from.
Gareth: I kind of fell into picture book writing in an interesting. Kind of way. I, I’ve always been a writer. And so I created a book about the yearning.
Of a gay man to become a father. This was way before I’d, you know, I’d found a life partner when he even thought it could be a possibility. but I kind of put that aside and then children came along. And I was constantly reading, picture books. and I thought, you know what? I think I’m going to start writing chapter books like these horrid Henry wins. They’re quite fun. So I, I developed a series about, my eldest going into, uh, a fantasy world. to get a little bit more knowledge. I went to a course that was half, chapter books and half picture books.
And actually it was that day that completely changed everything and blew my tiny little creative mind. And I thought,
why have you not done it? And I couldn’t answer that question. So I started and one of the first things I created was, it was in homage to, um, my little lad
but of course, as you know, when you read lots of picture books, it has to be quite a lot shorter. It has to have a point and these days it needs to have different layers to it. So that’s when I kind of focused in on the main activity is, fantasy coming from reading. And so it became a book about love and families, but more importantly about reading and excitement through books.
Lotte: amazing. And, Gary, when did you come into the, into the story?
Garry: I’ve been illustrating for quite some time. So, I was on the radar of Joe Marriott at random house. He’s, he’s our, he’s our key, director and he put us do together. So, I’ve been working with, with him prior to meeting Gareth So this kind of matched just really seemed to work cause I spent a lot of time drawing dinosaurs that poo and all sorts of
Lotte: no, you are the dinosaur, that poops guy.
Garry: Yes, that’s me. Uh, so, so to illustrate something that was really close to my heart and like, uh, you know, this is, uh, this is a true telling, this is, this is my life,
Lotte: Hmm, that must’ve felt really nice.
Garry: With Greg.
Lotte: Yeah.
When I was reading the book with my daughter, we really liked the spread of the party where there’s different families coming to the door. Cause I think there’s two mums that come to the door or they’re sitting at the table and my daughter was always pointing them out and saying just like mama, mommy.
It’s just so sweet to see your. Family represented in children’s books because it’s, it’s so rare that it happens and, and we’ll come onto that in a bit. So obviously, as an adoptive dad, yourself, we talked about one of the spreads in the book, which is the, that you said was your favorite Gareth of the, uh, the, my story.
Book. Right. Which has all of the different components of the adoptive children’s life before, before they came to you. And I feel like I might be wrong, but that’s certainly the first time I’ve seen that kind of thing really illustrated in that detail and spoken about in that detail in a book. you write it for adoptive parents?
Or did you write it for all parents because of that sort of specific. Detailed on the adoption process.
Gareth: I mean, that’s a really, really interesting question. And I’ve given the book to several people to take a look at. And it’s always that page that gets the biggest, Oh, now that are, as, as I dramatically created, then, it is into layers. If you are an adoptive parent, or if you understand the adoptive journey, you know, that’s a life story book and immediately there’s, there’s so much emotion and impact within that.
if, if you don’t understand what that is, The art comes from a water lovely reflection of that family. What a lovely record of that family. Look, we do those kinds of things. Isn’t that? There’s lots of similarities there as well. So. I think you kind of hit the nail on the head when you asked the question, is it for everybody or is it just for, you know, gay parents?
No, absolutely. It’s for everybody.
Lotte: Gary, can, can you just talk to me a bit about in your experience as a children’s picture book, illustrator, you said you’ve been doing it for a number of years and, I’m sure you’ve had to illustrate all sorts of.
Crazy things in your time, but how do you feel about representation and, particularly in terms of the families that you’re asked to draw for books, does it frustrate you that you’re always drawing moms and dads and what sort of power do you have as the illustrator to suggest changes?
Garry: I do try and see, you know, slip in certain things every now and again, generally it’s really lacking in diversity. So, I think what I would really like to see in picture books is where. there might be, there might be two dads represented during the story, which is completely irrelevant to what’s happening
Lotte: yeah, because it’s, it’s almost like finding an Easter egg, like when you sit, when you’re reading a book that isn’t about, gay families and you see in the background, like, Ooh, maybe that, maybe that two dads, so maybe that’s your mom’s or it’s a bit ambiguous.
Garry: absolutely. I mean, there are a few books as well. I have a couple of favorites which are really wonderful but there isn’t, there really isn’t very many
Lotte: tell it. Do you tell us the books that you, that you’re thinking of?
Garry: Yeah, one of my favorites is hello, sailor by Ingrid Gordon. And this is, this has been a while around for a while.
It’s fantastic. and, there’s this one called perfectly normal by Tom. First of all, that’s really great too. And. I have to say, Julian is a mermaid on it. If you know
Lotte: Oh yeah. That’s come highly
Garry: Jessica Love is just
really beautiful.
Lotte: yeah, it’s
Garry: definitely moving with picture books.
Gareth: this is the first time a major, major publisher has brought out a book. In a, in a mainstream kind of way. I mean, if you look at all these other ones that feature two daddies or same-sex relationships, a lot of them are either independently published, Or with smaller publishers, Puffin penguin, random house is actually the number one.
So this, this is a first.
Lotte: Well, it’s brilliant. And hopefully it’s the first of many. I was wondering if you had the book on you or if indeed you remembered it at all. And if you could maybe just read us, a little segment towards the end so people can get a nice sense of the book.
Gareth: My dad is, uh, amazing. The world’s best King and King and story time with them will always be my favorite thing. Good night, dad is
thank you. I love the little end picture with the children asleep and the dad is at the door.
Lotte: Yeah. So just for listeners at home, this sort of thing. Very very last page for the book is the, uh, a scene that we all will know quite well, which is collapsed on the sofa at the end of the day. I don’t know if they’ve actually got a glass of wine that you can see in the book, but
Garry: the alcohol in , but
Lotte: Oh, interesting.
Okay. Well that totally makes sense. Well, it’s been brilliant having you on the show. Thank you so much. And the book is out on the 1st of April. So,
Gareth: 1st of April and it’s coming out to exactly the same time in America as it is over here as well. And it’s a slightly different title and a slightly different cover in America
Lotte: Ooh, what’s it called in America.
Gareth: adventures with my dad is.
Lotte: Oh, interesting. We wish you all the best with the book. I’m sure it’s going to be a fantastic success and it’s going to be mainstream, which is going to be brilliant and breakthrough.
And so many families will discover it and learn something and we will be changing the world one book at a time. So thank you both so much.
Stu: Amazing. And I love latte that there is an LGBTQ plus book where it is both the author and the illustrator who are adoptive gay dads. So whoop whoop for representation.
Lotte: Yes. And a shout out to my best friend, even though everybody’s taking the piss of me for calling him my best friend, like I’m six years old, but my best friend, Joe Marriott at Puffin penguin random house, the publisher behind the book, because he is not only my best friend, but he is a brilliant champion of LGBTQ plus picture book.
literature and he’s really paving the way for some great books in the future. Watch this space say no more that are celebrating queer families. So, thank you, Joe, for the work you’re doing for the community.
Stu: go, Joe. So listeners, we do hope that you’ve enjoyed this little chit chat that Lottie and I have had about books
Lotte: We’ve had our glass of Chardonnay. We’ve bitched about our husbands. We’ve got into the books.
Stu: My parents were in is a nice glass of red. My favorite companion, when I’m reading my own books, that is that I have been known to tuck the kids in bed, holding a glass of wine whilst reading a bit of Carolyn Robinson’s, uh, fine literature.
we hope to do this again. Soon. We were also going to be doing this live Lottie. We were actually planning alive book, episode it,
Lotte: Yes at the Royal Albert Hall.
Stu: Yes with one person watching, which would be your mum, bless her Lottie. But now at this amazing inclusive children’s bookshop in Brixton called round table books.
And if you live in Brixton and you know it, please go out and support it. I’ve heard it’s wonderful. in our next book episode, we hope that some of you may join us. In the bookshop where we can sit and have a really good natter over some wine about some, uh, some more inclusive books.
There are some fabulous LGBTQ plus books out there. And if you’re thinking of writing one, then do, because as Carolyn said, there just cannot be enough.
Lotte: Thanks for joining us for our special books episode. The library is now colorist, but don’t forget.
Stu: Reading is fundamental.