Stu talks emotional labour, impertinent questions and raising boys with Comedian & Author of ‘The Other Mother’ Jen Brister… Meanwhile Lotte explores whether she wants to be pregnant herself, and what having a baby herself would mean for her family dynamic.
Full transcription below.
Jen Brister: We need visibility, we need as much visibility as possible. We need to create a support network and just create a group where people can feel that they can tap into something and go, Oh, these people are going through exactly what I’m going through with what is already normal, which is that same sex couples, have families and have been having families for decades. It’s not It’s not like a new thing. And, you know, the reason I wrote my book is because there was nothing. There was nothing at all. That was a that was about what I was going through. And I was like, you know, I can’t be the only person that is doing this. You know, the more people talk about it, the more normal it isn’t, the more normal is the less homophobia, the badness, homophobia, the you know, the better quality of life our children have, and we’ll have as a family,
Stu Oakley: amen to that.
Lotte Jeffs: So welcome to some families. This is the LGBTQ parenting podcast that I have wanted to listen to you and instead of listening to it, I’m now hosting it. Which is great because I get to find out all the same information, but also satiate my huge diva like ego by wearing headphones and singing in front of a microphone. But yes, some families it’s our LGBTQ parenting podcast. Stu, tell us more about Hello.
Stu Oakley: Yes Welcome. Hello everyone. This is some families as Lotte said, and it is really for all those different families out there. You know, some people have two moms some people have two dads some people have a combination or they’ve come into this world through various different means, which we’re here to discover, learn more about discuss and and really help inform people out there and to talk to you and and and hear from you. So I’m Stu Oakley I’m a father of two through adoption
Lotte Jeffs: and I am Lotte Jeffs and I’m a lesbian mother of one & my wife carried our daughter
Stu Oakley: so we’re going to find out what’s new. We’re gonna talk about what’s on the bleeding edge of parenting. Yes, we’re here. This week, so I wandered into a comedy club
just with my Martini and I was like, Who’s this who’s performing tonight? It was only it was only lesbian mom, Jen Brister
Lotte Jeffs: Jen bloody Brister
Stu Oakley: the other mother,
Lotte Jeffs: can we just say. The other other mother, as I think I’d like to be the other mother in this room
Stu Oakley: You’re the other mother, she’s the other other mother,
Lotte Jeffs: but she does have a book. called The Other Mother so
Stu Oakley: you’re technically the gentle woman and…
Lotte Jeffs: ‘m, yeah, I do have a book called the women so, okay
Stu Oakley: you cant have it all lotte
Lotte Jeffs: She kind be the mother, but you got to talk to her.
Stu Oakley: I did… i did
Yeah, she was incredible. incredibly funny. Thank God. I mean, it’s her career. And you know, she is she is funny. She has written a book called The other mother. She is a lesbian. I mean, she’ll, she’ll tell you all about it herself, but she is a lesbian mum of two gorgeous twin boys. I mean, what a handful to have twins
Lotte Jeffs: yes can’t imagine.
Stu Oakley: And so I taught all about you know how she deals with touring and how daily life with her and her partner
Lotte Jeffs: he emotionally load how they split things up.
Stu Oakley: Exactly. And she was fantastic.
Lotte Jeffs: Let’s have a listen.
Jen Brister: Yeah, very positive vibes. Yeah, yeah. So I just assumed that my kids without me having to do anything without me having to say anything. They would just naturally be woke lesbians. Yeah. Who just be naturally right on socially conscious forward thinking. Feminists were just the right amount of empathy to apply that.
You know, race,religion, and sexuality. But as it turns out, these pricks can’t cope with a broken biscuit. So….
I have a partner, my girlfriend’s and we have twin boys who are five.
Stu Oakley: So what do you call each other to the kids is one mama one. Yeah,
Jen Brister: I’m I’m Mama. Yeah, I’m Chloe’s mummy.
And that’s how Yeah, so then they’re very clear about those names and If sometimes at school, they’ll say, oh, Mummy’s here to pick you up and they’ll come out and I’ll go, this isn’t mummy. She’s not mummy.
And then people look at me going, who are you then??? Oh, nevermind. I am legitimately allowed to be here.
Stu Oakley: And how did you come to have your twin boys?
Jen Brister: We just, it was a lot of friction. No, we know we did IVF that’s what we did. We skipped IUI and we went straight to IVF. Okay, in utero, insemination incase… anyone’s confused. And that we started the process about about seven years ago. So it took us a couple years to get to get my partner pregnant, get Chloe pregnant,
Stu Oakley: and was it Chloe’s kind of desires. as you said to be pregnant that kind of led to the decision that she would be the birth biological mother?
Jen Brister: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was a very short conversation. Like, I think it was something like do you want to do it with I said, Oh, I don’t I don’t really I really Want to do it? Okay, you did it. So that was
Stu Oakley: easy descision… done.
Jen Brister: I imagine I imagine some lesbian couples that it’s, you know, it might be quite it might be that both of them really want to get pregnant, but I have to be honest. I was 37 when we started and or any urge that I might have had in my early 20s, which I did to be pregnant had disappeared quite a long time ago. So it wasn’t I didn’t feel like I was missing out. I know, having seen what chloe went through when she was pregnant. I still don’t feel like I was missing out.
Yeah.
Stu Oakley: eah. And was that always the path you saw? Or did you kind of explore other paths? I mean,
Jen Brister: I think, uh, I think when we started, we did consider we did consider in-utero we did consider adoption, would have been perfectly happy to adopt but I know that Chloe was much… had a much stronger desire to be pregnant. And so it’s you know, it made sense for us to at least try it and I think if it hadn’t hadn’t been successful we we almost certainly would have adopted definitely would have gone through that.
Stu Oakley: So you’ve obviously famously reference yourself as the other mother.
Jen Brister: Oh, I mean, I don’t really reference myself as anything I mean, I I suppose that call myself the other mother, for the book, because particularly when the children were babies God there’s endless conversations about whose mum and Isn’t it lovely that you’ve got a friend helping you and all that crap was so used to used to really get on my tits.
And so I would find myself having to explain myself as the other mother. But now that my children for some reason, now that my children are older, people don’t seem to ask us those questions anymore. But when they’re babies people ask very intrusive questions that they simply don’t when your kids are older, I think people like people like babies like they like you know, little animals and puppies and things. But once people don’t really like children
in this country, we love our baby and we hate kids.
Stu Oakley: And I can start talking back to them. Yeah. I mean, we have to try and hold a conversation with them
Jen Brister: once they’ve got personalities. Yeah, they can really **** off. So I think that’s the general vibe. I do also think that when possibly it might be that people are more aware of same sex couples having children, you know, so much can happen. We’ve got so much happens in 12 months, doesn’t it? Yeah. And so like, there is something about having a baby that people feel like they can offer you advice or that they can just stop you and talk to you or they can pick up your baby or touch you in a way that that just stops what as usual. Yeah. Older is but it’s very possibly a bit of both.
Stu Oakley: And have you noticed anything different from being at school gates or any I mean, you you live in Brighton, right?
Jen Brister: Yeah.
Stu Oakley: And that is, you know, Brighton is a bit of a different place, then say maybe other places in the countries.
Jen Brister: People don’t care. Now genuinely, they don’t care. No one’s battered an eyelid teaches other parents so yeah, we, I think I mean, I’m certain there are there are plenty of other same sex couples.
Stu Oakley: Yes,
Jen Brister: within school. I haven’t met any in our year in my children’s year yet, but they might be just I’m not very good at school gates. That’s a whole new. That’s a whole new political landscape which, which I’m struggling to navigate
Stu Oakley: Lotte and I have talked quite a bit actually, how we similarly we haven’t found anything different that you know about being LGBT parents at the school run, but we have both talked about sometimes we’re expecting it or waiting for it sometimes. Like, is that something you are you just super, you’re just chilled?
Jen Brister: I Well, I certainly when the children was smaller, I was always waiting for it. It’s constantly in a state of like, heightened Oh, here we go. Here’s the other questions coming. They’re gonna ask about breastfeeding. I didn’t breastfeed them. You know, I did feel that also when they’re when they’re smaller. You are doing, you tend to do activities with, with babies that do anything. Now that they’re a bit older, they sort of run off and they can play. Yeah. So I can play with them. Yeah. And I can avoid that.
Stu Oakley: Yeah,
Jen Brister: those conversations. So I’ve had a lot less of them. But yeah, when there was when they were sort of nought to two, that it was constant and it
Stu Oakley: Yeah,
Jen Brister: It really, by the end of it, I suppose. I was trying not to get stroppy with people. Yeah, who just been asking me quite reasonable question. But But I think a lot of that was hangups about me not being a proper parent or me not being which I don’t have anymore
Stu Oakley: and your five years in
so you’re confidence you know, every it’s still an ad venture and journey but you are five years in.
Jen Brister: Yeah, five years in and, you know, when they’re babies, you’re like, well, I don’t really know how they feel about me. I mean, I know how I feel about my children, but I don’t know how they feel about me. So, I mean, obviously babies can show you love of course they can. And my children were very territorial around the both of us in some ways. But now that that Sort of five and they constantly meet you can see that they need you and they want you and and they tell you that they love you then you’re like, oh, I’ve got I’ve nailed this is fine. So all of that neurosis is now kind of lifted a bit. I’m not saying I don’t have the occasional attack, but it’s rare. Yeah. And also you’re often in the throes of, like you said, you’ve got kids off to work and you think, Oh, god, I’m gonna have forgotten for dinner tonight and who’s gonna come home late when I get to see them before they go to sleep and all that sort of stuff. So it’s the logistics of having children’s sort of kind of diffuse all of those anxieties and neurosis that you might ordinarily have. If you’re just sitting on your own thinking about it. I wouldn’t say it’s 50/50 balance because it can’t be because I’m away such a lot. So if I said that, I mean, I would sit and Chloe was listening to this.
Stu Oakley: Chloe would be like [clears throat]
Jen Brister: She’d be like, 100% no, you know, there have been points as the children were born that it was that it was much more 50/50. I think what we do have is I’m a lot more aware and more conscious of what Chloe is doing so that it’s not like I’m like, oh, that happened. And I’m not aware of it, you know, like, I’m aware of the fact that she does. For example, She went out and got all the school clothes for the kids because I, you know, I was in Edinburgh Festival. Before that I was working towards doing it and I was completely useless at practically all thinking forward. You know, she’ll be the one that thinks about the extra things that the children might need. That I’m not that I’m not thinking about, because I’m not in the house. Away, so, but what I think we do have is that we are, we’re not ignoring that, that so that she’s, the fact that chloe was having to take on that load isn’t going unnoticed by me. And I think that it’s not, that mental load that she takes on is something that I’m like, right? You know, you did that now I need to take over a bit at the weekend. So I will do that. Or you need to tell me if there’s anything I can take off that very long list that you have when I have like a Monday off, and then she’ll give me a list of stuff to do so. You know, I’m not saying that I’m the person that does it all with chloe but I what I would say is that some of my friends are in heterosexual relationships who that their partner is just completely oblivious. They just don’t notice it just gets done and they’re like, they don’t even notice it’s being done. And that’s the thing that drives them mad. It’s not that they have to do it. It’s just that nobody there’s zero appreciation for somebody doing it. And I think that that in same sex couples, whether it be two women or two men, you’re constantly communicating what you’re doing with each other and so that hopefully one person doesn’t feel like someone’s taking the piss. You know?
Stu Oakley: We’re gonna take a quick break, crack open the gin and see you in a sec.
Lotte Jeffs: Let’s pick up where we left off
Stu Oakley: You. You’ve taught a before about your advice to people about raising boys wondering if they asked you know, any questions yet that has indicated about where the Dad is.
Jen Brister: They’ve never really asked where their dad is. Because we very early on drummed in to the fact that some people don’t have a dad
Stu Oakley: yeah, that every family is different. And there are and I think that’s probably the key bit of advice is surrounding yourself with other different wonderfully mixed families that then reflect everything.
Jen Brister: If you can,, it’s really easy for me to say that because it is, you know, it just happens to be that I have all of these mates on my doorstep. So yes, I’m not not because I’m like, sought this out, I was fortunate to have to have the, you know, these friends who were already living in Brighton also had children. But I really think that particularly for your children as they get older, even if you don’t feel like you need it for you, I guarantee your children will need it. And I think it’s it’s it’s, um, it’s only fair to them to let them see that they are not freaks or unusual or that they’re their family isn’t sort of odd, that their family is perfectly normal. And yeah, you know, it’s important for children to see that reflected. So I just think for lesbian and gay parents is just remember But that you are, there is nothing happening to you as a parent that…
Stu Oakley: That isn’t happening to any other family
Jen Brister: so when you’re having these conversations you think, oh god, this is gonna be a bit weird because I’m not. I’m not a mom. I’m not the biological mom. Ultimately, once you get down to the nitty gritty and you’re in these conversations, you’re all once you’ve got past birth,
Stu Oakley: yup,
Jen Brister: yeah. Then you’re all in the same s**t together. Yeah, you’re all not sleeping. Your kids know it. Yeah. kid is throwing checking your food at the wall. Someone’s taking a s**t in your shoe. Yeah. And your partner got drunk last night and, you know, vomming in the toilet and left you on your own with the kids. I mean, it’s all the same stuff that we do to any parents. And so you can always bond
Stu Oakley: but have you thought about what the answer might be or have you got an answer if they do when they do start questioning about the you know, that the donor and
Jen Brister: yeah, we’ve got a Got a book somewhere about it, which we bought before the children born actually which explained, which is like a story about hardware about where the donor comes from and why we chose the donor. And yeah. But the conversations that we had so far is they want to, they kind of want to know where a baby comes from. And so you said, you know, you choose a very special seed, and then we put a seed into mommy’s tummy and then the baby grows, and then a baby’s born, they still think they still think. I mean, basically, if they think one of them was in Chloe’s tummy and one of them was in mine. They still haven’t figured out that they were both even when we say the both together.
Stu Oakley: Yeah,
Jen Brister: one of my sons, it’s like, No, no, Mama, I was inside Mama’s Tummy and I was like, mmm, no, we’ve got your seed from a special man who lives in another country. And we chose you, you know, very carefully because we were so excited about having you. And we, you know, we have chosen a donor, they wanted to meet him, he’s up for it. I think as parents what we want to do is try to let our children know that they can express themselves. Yeah. And, and, and to talk about their feelings. And to not worry about gender. You know, not to not worry, things aren’t gendered like feelings. And, you know, and but, you know, we’re up against it, you know, even now that the back at school, you know, I’ve got one son who loves wearing dresses, and he absolutely, you know, I’m not saying that he wants to be a girl, but he just loves all girly things. Even his favourite colour is pink, you know? Now he’s come back, and he’s like, Oh, I’m not in into dresses anymore. And I’ve never liked pink. And it’s like, what? This is so depressing. So what we’ve said to him, is we just said to him, like, do you want to if you want to wear a dress, we’ll buy your dress, and you just wear at home and mummy and mama won’t tell anybody because it’ll be our secret. They’ll have just told everybody on this podcast. And I want my children to know that, you know, they’ve got two mums and we’re bloody brilliant. And then absolutely, if they have any desire to do anything that is considered feminine all then we definitely wholeheartedly
Stu Oakley: so we have an Aunt Sally, who’s the inappropriate person at a party that comes up and asked the most ridiculous question. Oh, God. Yeah. Have you had an Aunt Sally moment?
Jen Brister: I’ve had loads. Oh my goodness. Yeah. I mean, I don’t think it’s possible to avoid those is it? which one of you is the dad?
Stu Oakley: Right
Jen Brister: that’s, I mean, listen, that was very good. I was really close to being punched in the face moment for that person.
Stu Oakley: How do you respond like?
Jen Brister: Well, I just I just, I don’t I I think you’ve misunderstood. What lesbian relationship is. There are no there’s no men here so there can’t be a dad. Yeah.
Oh, yeah. But you know, one of you is the dad?.
No. Neither of us is the dad… its two mums.
Oh yeah but…,
all that kind of crap. err I can’t… i’m just try to think that was probably the most that that that. And often it was said as a joke. Someone thought it was funny, but I just never ever, ever, ever found it funny. And I was never even. I mean it was I just never found it even possible to make my face look like I found it funny. So there was always just like Easter Island head, you know, back at them going. Yeah. Ask me another question now, before I punch you. So that would be my Aunt Sally question, I suppose. Yeah.
Stu Oakley: Well, thank you. Aunt Sally, why do you think we do need a podcast like this for families who are either thinking about or on the journey like we are?
Jen Brister: we need visibility, we need as much visibility as possible. And we need as much support we need to create a support network, we need to create a group where people can feel that they can tap into something and go, Oh, these people are going through exactly what I’m going through. It’s not exactly similar.
And, you know, who doesn’t want to have their experience reflected back at them.. it’s also really important, I think, so that we normalise what is already normal, which is that same sex couples have families and have, by the way have been having families for decades. Yes, it’s not it’s not like a new thing.
Stu Oakley: Yup.
Jen Brister: You know, I’m not I’m not just because I’ve written this book. I’m not like the vanguard of like lesbian mums, I’m just happened to be one of the first people to write a book about it. And, you know, the reason I wrote my book is because there was nothing there was nothing at all that was a that was about what I was going through. And I was like, you know, I can’t be the only person that’s doing this. And so you know, I felt compelled to to write these was originally just show our schools for website, standard issue. And then it ended up becoming a book. But just so that it was like, if you’re in the same experience as me, if you’re doing what I’m doing, just know that you’re not the only person doing it. And also I know that because I constantly have people contact me going there. Thank you so much the book.
It was really good to hear
Stu Oakley: it means a lot to people
Jen Brister: it does it means a lot and and you know, the more people talk about it, the more normal it is, the more normal it is, the less homophobia the be in the less, homophobia, the you know, the better quality of life that our children have, and we’ll have as a family
Amen to that.
Stu Oakley: And thank you, Jen
Stu Oakley: what’s next for you? What’s your next project? What’s what you kind of looking to do?
Jen Brister: Well, I will be going on tour with my show, underprivileged, and I’m all over the country. I think until the end of May, as is my book, do you buy my book?
Stu Oakley: Thank you very much, Jim. So from your point of view, Lotty, listening back to Jen story. What How do you feel her journey maybe differs to yours?
Lotte Jeffs: I did think it was interesting how she spoke about really Who’s most likely to get pregnant but also I loved the way Jen was like, my partner asked me if I wanted to and I was like mmmmm cant be bothered and that was that easy!
Lotte Jeffs: and you know, she makes the point that probably for some same sex female couples. It’s not like that. And both have a kind of really physical desire to carry a child. And that’s probably a complicated conversation
it’s one that I’m kind of thinking about at the moment, actually, because my wife, Jenny had our first child. And I’ve always thought, oh, I’ll go next. But now it’s actually coming up to the time when I should be doing it. And I’m really challenging myself of like, do I want to have my own child? Like, is that a real deep seated physical want for me? Or do I just want to be a mum? And actually, I feel like I just want to be a mum and being my daughter’s mum is so satisfying to me. Like, I don’t feel any lack or any sense of like, Oh, it’s not quite the full experience.
Stu Oakley: Yeah,
Lotte Jeffs: absolutely not, it satiates me in so many ways, and I can’t imagine it being more fulfilling. But my wife says to me is and like she wants me to experience what she experiences. So I think I’m open to giving it a go.
Stu Oakley: Yeah,
Lotte Jeffs: but I don’t think I’m going to be obsessed with it working for me. I think at the moment, at least I feel like if it doesn’t work, two one or two times… fine. It wasn’t supposed to be. But if it does work, ahhhh,
Stu Oakley: yeah.
Lotte Jeffs: Then what? Then I’m really worried.
Stu Oakley: But then that’s, I think it’s so interesting. You and I so similar with that, at the moment in the sense of you both have all of our children, all of our children, many children that lotte and i have
you know, my children, your daughter, they’re, they’re not blood, they’re not biological, but God, we love them with every ounce of our being and they are us and they’re so special. So I completely get what you’re saying.
Lotte Jeffs: You can’t imagine that anything?
That it would be better.
Stu Oakley: no. And I, I would I, you know, I always used to think I’d love to have my own biological child somehow. And we moved away from that very quickly. But I just, I can’t imagine now, so I can completely understand where you’re coming from.
Lotte Jeffs: And it’s funny because I’ve spoken to quite a few lesbian couple friends who are thinking about going on their journey to having kids and one of the things that comes up for the person that isn’t going to be the one that carries the child is they say to me,
I’m really worried I’m not going to love it or I’m not going to feel anything for it.
And I just say, you really don’t need to worry about that because as soon as you hold that baby in your arms even before you know the whole pregnancy, if you’re involved, you’re living it every day you’re watching that bump grow, your so invested in it. It’s so yours from that very moment, I remember looking at the little ultrasound picture at like three months, and just thinking that’s my child. And that’s such a powerful feeling. And I think you can over intellectualise it to the point that you kind of talk yourself out of it and think, Oh, it’s not mine, it’s not blood, and you just need to stop thinking and start feeling and just let those feelings happen. And you’ve got nothing to worry about.
Stu Oakley: But from where Jenny’s coming from. Do you think actually having that balance in your family regardless of your feelings? Because
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah,
Stu Oakley: at the end of the day, and I’d imagine, you know, if a new child came along, you’re not going to think Oh, actually, biologically, this this one’s mine and my daughters not.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah.
Stu Oakley: And I suppose then that addresses also from Jenny’s point of view because she saying give it a go because you don’t know what it feels like. but actually, she could be the other way around.
Lotte Jeffs: She doesn’t know what it’s….
Stu Oakley: and she doesnt know what it feels like on your side
Lotte Jeffs: but this is really interesting
Stu Oakley: would be like, wow,
Lotte Jeffs: yeah,
Stu Oakley: God, I love that child just as much as I love our daughter.
Lotte Jeffs: Well, I wonder if it would be harder that way around. Because maybe it’s harder. Once you’ve felt that physiological connection to a child, which is for everything I’ve just said, carrying the child in your body, you do have a different relationship with it.
Stu Oakley: Of course,
Lotte Jeffs: you just do like it’s physical. I wonder if it would be harder, her way around to then have a relationship with the child that she didn’t have that physical experience with because she’s got that to compare it to. She’s feeling the differences of that in the way that I wouldn’t. I find it so interesting to think what that dynamic would be like as well, like if we both had one child each, it’s almost like well, that one’s mine. And that one’s yours. You know, how do you navigate that? We should get someone on thats done that talk about it.
I’m sure you don’t. I’m sure you’re not there thinking Like, that’s my one. That’s your one but it must come into
Stu Oakley: yeah,
Lotte Jeffs: the relationship in some way. And I can really see the appeal of egg sharing from that respect, because you do both probably feel like you’re equally physically biologically invested. But with gay parenting, like so much of it, I think is its intellectual and it’s how you choose to frame and speak about your family and the language you use and the the semantics of it as much as it’s about, you know, who literally is the mum and the dad, you know, it’s because it’s so not about who’s the mum and the dad it’s so something other anyway, it’s almost like it’s all up for grabs. You can do what you want with it,
Stu Oakley: which is what Jen was coming to, in the sense of, I mean, her whole thing about the other mother. Mm hmm. And having to almost constantly explain how she is the other mother.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah,
Stu Oakley: and feeling like she needs to explain how she is the other mother.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah.
Okay, well, this has been amazing. We have drunk a bottle of red wine. We meet in a lot of Haribo we should probably get back to our families. So…
Stu Oakley: or should should we just crack open?
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah, i mean we’re out now by our bed.
Stu Oakley: it’s that thing of like…
Lotte Jeffs: we’ve missed bed time anyway
Stu Oakley: come on everyone. help us spread the word we want to hear from as many people as possible. leave us a review. We really want to hear what you think. Tell your friends.
Lotte Jeffs: Yeah. Tell us what you want us to talk about. This is such new territory. There’s so much we could talk about. And so many people go through incredible different journeys. And we want to hear from you. We want to talk about it all. So please do get in touch.
Stu Oakley: Yeah, I mean, already on just our very short journeys together, locked in I’ve already felt like we’ve come up with the hundreds of combinations of different family types like there and I’m sure there’s more out there. So send us your questions. We want to hear from you. Tell us what you want to hear more of and you can find all our details in the show notes here.
Lotte Jeffs: goodnight.
Stu Oakley: Cheers