Lotte and Stu are joined by guest host, Leon Wenham. Leon, who spoke about his own adoption journey in Series 1, joins the hosts and invites a friend Nathan Yungerberg from New York, to discuss when someone of one race adopts a child that is different to their own race, aka trans-racial adoption. Nathan, who is African-American, is the product of trans-racial adoption himself as he was adopted by a white couple when he was a baby. He is now a gay single adoptive dad to two siblings from a Puerto Rican and Italian background. Nathan and our hosts discuss how important it is to consider race, when it comes to adoption, especially in a trans-racial scenario and how that can impact your parenting style, understanding race from the point of view of an adoptive parent and why having diversity on an adoption panel is so important to the adoption process.
LINKS
https://www.instagram.com/black.gay.dads.global/?hl=en
Full transcription below:
Nathan: Some families have a dad and two children, boy, and a girl. I am a product of trans racial adoption myself and I now have two children that I’m fostering that are both from the same mom and dad. So I’m actually now in a trans racial fostering to adoption scenario because they are Puerto Rican and Italian and I am half African-American and.
And some sort of white that I’m not exactly sure. Sometimes white people will adopt children of color. And that’s just the fact that I think that people just need to embrace that. But I think what needs to change is that there just needs to be a more solid educational aspect for white parents before they actually even get to the point of finalizing anything.
Lotte: Welcome listeners to some families. You’re number one, queer parenting podcast. I am your host Lotte Jeffs.,
Stu: and I am your host Stu Oakley and Oh, hang on. I think there’s someone else here, Lotte.
Leon: Hello. I’m your guest host, Leon. Hello listeners. Hello Stu and hello Lotte. Hey
Lotte: Leon. Thank you so much for joining us today for this very special.
Three, some addition. Of some families.
Stu: Oh, we’re getting kinky. Lotte I love it. There’s no one better. I’d like to have a threesome with and Leon. Okay. We’re going to out, but listener, if you haven’t already binged season one, go do so now. But if you did, you know, that we spoke to the wonderful Leon last season, there was so much still to cover that we didn’t ask him about.
And he is just an all around fabulous guy. So we wanted you back, right. Okay. What
Leon: an introduction or firstly, thanks for having me back. It’s great. And I just wanted to say thank you for the opportunity to tell my story. I wanted to go back just to say hi, and I know last time we spoke about my adoption story, but there’s so much more to.
Speak about in, around race and adoption as well. So I’ve invited a friend of mine, Nathan, another adoptive dad who lives in the concrete jungles, AKA New York city to talk to us later about his adoption journey. He was also adopted as a child and he was a transracial adoptee, which is something which we’ll delve into later.
Lotte: How did you meet Nathan?
Leon: I met him through my group that I setup actually black gay dads, global, and it’s on Instagram and Facebook. And essentially it’s a support group for black and dual heritage gay dads.
Stu: Amazing, you’ve gone global Leon. I love it. What’s the handle. So people can find you if they’re listening
Leon: black gay that’s global.
And with the dots in between all of those words on Instagram. Twitter and Facebook. Nice.
Lotte: So before we talked to Nathan, Leon, fill us in, how have you been, what have the past few weeks been looking like for you and how are you surviving and thriving in this crazy time? I feel like
Leon: I’ve basically been in lockdown since we last spoke, which I kind of have.
Stu: I think we were, we were in lockdown when you came on before. Yeah.
Leon: A parent, as I’m sure you guys can both relate. And many of our listeners in this period has, has been tough. Just being a one man band, you know, has been quite intense at times, but it is what it is. I think when you’re a parent, as you, as you know, you just.
You use make your work don’t you? The book is still there. When I spoke to you last, I think I was going down the self publishing routes, so I don’t have an agent. So if you want to talk to me in the future, speak to my agents, she’s basically, I’ve literally waited my whole life to say
Lotte: that as he might be coming to this episode, without having listened to the original episode where you told us about your children’s book, you’ve written a children’s book about a black gay, single adoptive.
Leon: It’s a book really to normalize my nuclear family, many of the people’s nuclear families out there, but also just to teach children, empathy and understanding. And, um, there is, you know, more than the 2.4 Caucasian family unit, which is often. That’s the narrative that’s pushed to. The book is called to you, me and lots and lots of love.
Yeah. Good
Stu: luck. And also something Leon, we really want to talk to you about and something that we’re obviously going to touch upon with Nathan in our interview with him, Nathan is based in the U S who we know has a very different adoption process. To the one that is in the UK. Can you talk a little bit about diversity as a black dad within the adoption community and within the adoption process?
Even within the UK? My understanding is that there are many more. Children of black, Asian, middle Eastern ethnicity that are, that are waiting for adoption over, over white children.
Leon: Yeah. Um, I’m in the London region around 37% of white children are waiting 18 months plus for a match. Whereas 49% of children from mainly black Jewish heritage mixed Asian backgrounds are waiting.
So it’s like both 9%. They’re waiting for the same period. So it’s a significantly. Hi a number again, it’s something that was spoken about quite a lot. There’s just the lack of people from the ethnic minority communities coming forward. There’s various reasons for that. A lot of it stems from maybe not trusting the systemic.
We look at how structured and an institutional racism has. Being in the UK and also prejudice. And I think that has a lot to do with it. If you look at how let’s say the Windrush generation retreats it, and then they’re invited to come to this country to, to build this country, the motherland, so to speak.
And they came and they were met with no blacks, no dogs, no Irish. So I think historically there’s always been that thing there. Um, You know, if you look at maybe some of the jobs that people of color are doing in comparison in maybe they feel, you know, do I earn enough? Is my home big enough? Do I have the extra rooms?
I think there’s also a lot of things that small things that the community may focus on, which on even a thing. But it’s just the lack of maybe. Information, or maybe they’re not really seeing themselves represented. I mean, I never saw anybody that looked like me in the adoption world, so to speak. And I think, you know, representation matters as, as we all know, and whether it be a children’s book and seeing themselves in it or in the adoption world.
So I think maybe just due to a lack of representation and maybe not understanding. The process as well, because it can be quite detailed and quite intrusive. And I think culturally, um, a lot of people, not just from the black communities, not exclusively about culture. I think there’s a thing about privacy and, you know, allowing people into your home and really delving into your family business, it can feel quite vulnerable for a lot of people.
That’s
Stu: really interesting. And do you think it’s also the fact and, you know, transracial adoption is something we come onto a lot in this episode as well, but do you think it’s also the, the, the amount of children who are waiting is also down to the fact that there are many white adopters who are simply not choosing children from a different ethnic background?
Leon: Um, it kind of went both ways. I think trans racial adoption and is more common in the USA than compared to the UK and a city. Is it sound, but some white parents just want to keep black baby. And it’s that? It sounds silly to say that, but I’ve heard that. So I think, you know, we’re trying to variable adoption.
I don’t have an issue with it. I think that the correct work needs to be done. Around educating yourself, being comfortable in majority black spaces, understanding black history. And when I say black history, I don’t just mean slavery. Like there’s more to our history than just trauma. And I feel like it’s, it’s something that needs to, you need to have a lot of thought before entering into it because a lot of the transracial adoptees that I currently speak with through my platform, all of them, not a lot of them, all of them.
Have got, or had massive issues around identity fitting in, you know, not feeling comfortable in majority black spaces. And this is even some black transracial adoptees as well. So it can be quite problematic if it’s not handled in the right way from, from the adopters. So our
Lotte: guest today is from New York city and his friend of Leon’s, as Leon said, and he’s kindly agreed to talk to us about his own adoption story as a parent, and also as an adoptive child himself.
His name is Nathan Yungerburg , and we have had to bleep his little girl’s name out of the episode.
Leon: Hi, Nathan. Welcome to some families. How
Nathan: are you? Hello? I’m good. Thank you for having me. I know I’ve been elusive lately. Um, but it’s good to see. Good
Leon: to see you too. So obviously we know each other, but can you just start by telling the listeners a little bit about yourself
Nathan: and your family? Yes. So I’m a writer based in Brooklyn.
I am a product of trans racial adoption myself and I now have. Two children that I’m fostering that are both from the same mom and dad. So I’m actually now in a transracial fostering to adoption scenario because they are Puerto Rican and Italian, and I am half African-American and some sort of white that I’m not exactly sure.
So I’ve got an 18 month old. Who’s been with me since she was two weeks old and I have a nine week old her brother who just came to us, uh, seven weeks ago now. Good Lord. Yeah. So I’m a. Up to my neck in dirty diapers and spit up and a bunch of other stuff, happiness. You’ve got your hands full then I do.
Yeah, but I’m managing, I keep telling people I’m still standing. So, and
Leon: just for our listeners that don’t know, can you clarify the term trans transracial adoption? Yeah, I mean,
Nathan: from, from my perspective, It would just be when parents of one race adopt a child that are outside of their race. I mean, from my specific situation, growing up, my parents were white and then I was raised in a family with a Korean sister and a multi-racial sister.
And then now I’m continuing that reality in. So you were adopted
Lotte: yourself, Nathan?
Nathan: Yes. At, uh, two weeks old. Yes. Wow.
Lotte: Can you tell us a bit about. That experience for you and, and how it’s informed your attitude to parenting today?
Nathan: Yeah, definitely. I think first and foremost, my parents were an artist, really loving people.
So we definitely got like heavy doses of that. On the flip side of that though, you know, they, they raised us in all over the Midwest, but I grew up in a small city in Wisconsin. In, I think we moved there in the late seventies and, you know, it was like 99.9% white, and I just have to stay safe. And still at this age, I’ll be turning 50 this year.
It’s still the one weight that I carry in regard to, I think, childhood trauma, because I actually finally was able to embrace the fact that it was, I can actually call it trauma because it was extremely traumatic growing up in that environment. And I’m still kind of unraveling the. The beautiful mass that I was brought into as a child.
Oh, when you asked how it relates today and into my parenting today, correct. I think it’s made me extra conscious because I forget sometimes that my children are of a race, you know, separate from me because I’m, I’m mixed black and white. So we actually look similar. People constantly think that they’re my biological children and it’s so easy to kind of fall into that.
Um, many times people will send books and gifts. And so it was kind of rooted in African American, this and that. And I have to keep telling people like, they’re, you know, they’re half Puerto Rican, so I need to get some, you know, Hispanic type of things as well. And you know, I’m considering moving back to Minneapolis where I live for 15 years before here, which is.
Much more diverse than the city that I grew up in, but if I get to adopt them, God willing. And so I’m just constantly thinking of those things. Like, I want to make sure that I have a community surrounding them there so that they can still. Be rooted in their culture and I’ve learned how to make some of their food, which I’m going to make tonight for the babysitter and I’m committed.
So can
Leon: you kind of talk us through the fostering, um, Shrek adoption process in the USA because I know it’s very, very different to in the UK. And did you come across any problems, um, being LGBTQ plus and a person of color,
Nathan: right. Well, I’ll start with the LGBTQ plus. No, they just, so in New York state that I think the laws are.
Different than other States in the U S but they just passed something a while back that says that all foster parents have to be LGBTQ affirming. Although, sadly, I guess a lot of them go through training and, and. Say that they are. And then when they get the call, uh, for like a trans child is something they tell them that it’s against their religion.
And then they like hang up on the, the home finders, which I think is just despicable, but they were from the get go. They told me that that’s a huge part of, kind of the mission and, you know, being a person of color. No, because the agency that I worked through. Is in downtown Brooklyn. So the majority of the people that work there are black, and I’d say probably 90, some percent of the children in foster care are black.
There’s a lot of differences between here in the UK. And I think one that’s just been really challenging for me is the length of time that they give the birth parents. They do something that is like a minimum of 15 months before they can file the TPR, the termination of parental rights. So we’re getting to that point with my foster daughter.
But then what I found out is that even after that, they will still give the parents up to a year and a half to two years after that’s filed to still get their act together, which I think is just ridiculous because I mean, by the time July rolls around school will have been with me for two years. We’ve been considering to take a child out of my home.
That’s been with me since she was two weeks old. It’s just, it’s ridiculous to me.
Stu: Nathan. Did you consider a private adoption in the States or for you? Was it always going through. The agencies that you’ve been through. Yeah,
Nathan: because I’m a freelance artists. It wasn’t really an option financially, just because of the costs.
And also the same with surrogacy. I have other gay male, black gay male friends who are more financially well to do. And so they’re looking into those options, but for me, just kind of like. Because of the fine finance, the financial reality, it just seems more feasible. Um, although I wasn’t super, we’re excited about the reality of having to do the foster aspect first.
Like I was really more interested in finding a child that was legally free to adopt, which could have been because the parents had passed away or like voluntarily surrendered them. Or they have a program called safe Harbor where. Parents can drop kids off at like hospitals and police stations. Like no questions asked and then they immediately are available when you still have to foster it.
But it’s like a six months. Process, and it just, it’s a more expedited reality. I don’t have a situation like that, that unfortunate. Mm. And
Stu: did you have the option because with fostering to adopted, was that something you straight away were up for doing? I imagine it’s quite similar to the process here in the sense of foster to adopters, you get them straight away when they’re put into care rather than being put into another foster family.
So was that always. Like what you wanted or did, were you looking at adopting children? Who’d been potentially older children. Who’d been in the care system for a while?
Nathan: Well, from what I understand, there are children who go through foster to adopt who have been in multiple homes as well, even they can be younger like five or six.
And, um, I just somehow ended up getting the newborns, which was not my intention at all. Like I went into this, I said, I don’t want babies and I don’t want teenagers. Um, I wanted more like three years old. But it just happened that this is how things unfolded. It was just, it, it kind of popped up out of the blue.
And I just decided to answer that.
Lotte: Do you mind if we just hop back in time a little bit, tell us a bit about your experiences as a child, and you talked about trauma and I don’t know, to what extent you’re comfortable talking about it, but if you could just explain to us a bit more about what that trauma looked like and felt like for you as a.
Yeah. Child with white parents.
Nathan: Yeah. No, and I I’m like an open book when it comes to that. Cause I always feel like regardless of someone’s race or cultural background stories have kind of like turned to piece your scattered self together as kind of like a universal theme. I mean, I think just from the get go, it’s like the reality of being, you know, five years old in this like family that’s like uniquely different from everyone and just going to a restaurant.
And going to a store, having everyone turned and stare, you know, cause this kid’s like, you kind of want to just like blend in and you don’t want to stand out. And then to have like the spotlight be on you all the time. Numerous scenarios from elementary school to high school where the white kids were always intrigued by my hair and wanted to like touch my hair, like stick things in my hair.
Fortunately, I wasn’t really. Subjected to a lot of like name calling like the N word. I think I only heard like a couple times, but it was just subtle things that were just kind of always there. Um, and then also too, like having parents who were well-intentioned and loving. But just did not have the life experience or the consciousness to really fully be able to under take facilitating like the, these experiences.
Like I remember one time when I was eight years old and, uh, was in, in history class or something and they were reading something about Africa and one of the kids mispronounced the river Niger and. It, you know, all the kids turned and looked at me and it was just awful. And I remember I went home from school and tried to talk to my parents and they just weren’t equipped.
And so they would constantly dismissing like dismissal, you know, dismissal was the root of a lot of the trauma. And I think at eight, eight or nine years old, I finally just realized like, no one is here for me. Like I am completely out here on my own. And so I kind of, it really affected by emotional and psychological reality because I became a complete.
Loner. I was extremely introverted and. Just don’t let people get close to me. Um, and I’m still, again, like I mentioned, like I’m still unpacking all of that stuff to this day.
Leon: If I feel as an adult, I mean, you said you’re nearly 50. How do you feel all about trauma? I mean, does it still affect you to this day?
Do you still carry things around in regards to your identity? Let’s say or. Acceptance within the black community. Like how, how does that affect you to this present day?
Nathan: I think what’s changed is that my coping mechanisms have become extremely fine tuned through like years of therapy and just like work that I’ve done on myself.
But a lot of those situations, situations and scenarios still present themselves. I mean, You know, one of the things that happens a lot with other black people is the commenting on how I speak. And like that used to really, really kind of be like a punch in the stomach. And then it’s like older. I just really started to realize, like I had no choice over the way that I was raised, like the way that I speak and the way that I taught I walk and whatnot.
So many different things are a product of the environment that I was raised in, you know, so I still get triggered, but they don’t. They don’t take me down as much as they did before, because I’m really able to kind of like, look at them, look at the situation from a distance. And interestingly enough, like I have a lot of gratitude towards those experiences.
And it sounds strange sometimes when I say that, but because of the work that I do and the stories that I tell, you know, they’re all deeply rooted in like expressing layers of like black humanity and, um, the search for self and whatnot. And I just feel like having gone through. Those experiences were just do kind of represent such a core aspect of human beings, like searching for who am I like?
Where do I fit in? Like, where is home? It gives me a deep understanding of like the human condition and it gives me. It just, I feel like it’s a, it’s a positive attribute to my, my writing. Yeah.
Stu: I know. Say how did you take the steps with your adoptive family as well to talk to them in when you were older about this?
I mean, it did to you and how did you address it
Nathan: with them? Many conversations that took place over many, many, many years, and most of those situations were dismissed and, you know, I would. Have kind of like a meltdown, like every five years or every three years or something like that. And so finally, when I was 24, 25, I had since moved away from home and was living in a different city.
And my dad finally wrote me a letter, which I still have, and he admitted to his failures in, um, I guess, uh, you know, Giving attention to my cultural needs and whatnot. And his explanation was, you know, it, it made sense to me, you know, he came from a farm life in Minnesota, back in the forties, you know, his parents survived the great depression and, you know, he grew up with like no heat in the house and just.
Not having food and a lot of fear and anxiety that was, you know, connected to that. And so his mission when he had children was just to give them the things that he didn’t have, but being a white man and not having gone through the extra layer of oppression and struggle that I did that just completely, you know, evaded his, his, um, perception.
And I think he said he was in denial. Like you said, all those times you came to us like. I just didn’t want to actually have to touch that to actually think that I ended up failing you in a huge way. Like my parents failed me, but he just said I wanted to apologize. And it, it healed like so much just within an instant.
It was like, bam. It completely repaired a lot of the holes that we had. But it took a long time, you know, it took a really long time to get to that point.
Leon: What do you think your parents could have done differently? Cause, um, I speak to as you know, a lot of transracial adoptees at the moment and it’s the small things that a lot of people that think about, whether it be music, hair, for example, um, culture, history, acknowledging that. What, what is it, what the key things that you think, looking back if they’d have done this.
Things would have been easier for you or
Nathan: better for you? Well, I think first and foremost, like there were other black people in our town, like granted there was like a city of 50,000 people and there was maybe like 10 or 15 other black people, but I think it would have been really helpful. Had they sought out early on just some families maybe that we could, you know, spend time with.
Um, at one point they did try, there were some other transracial. Adoptees that lived near us, but it was already too late. Like I was 10, 11, 12, like, you know, about ready to go through puberty. And then I rejected it. Like, I just, I didn’t want to have to do that because it was the constant reminder that I was different.
So I think things like that books would have been really valuable. I think most importantly though, just acknowledging the pain that I brought to the table, I think would have been wonderful. Cause that dismissal. Is the worst thing that parents can do the worst thing. Yeah, I think that’s
Lotte: great advice for, for parents generally, as well as being very good advice for this specific scenario.
I think sometimes as a parent, your instinct is just to make it better all the time. And I can totally see myself doing that sometimes as well, but to just kind of lean into that anguish or their pain and not just say, Oh, it’ll be okay. Or they didn’t mean it, or, you know, because it’s hard because it opens.
You up then as well. And like, we come as parents to parenting with our own shit. Don’t, we’re being triggered all the time and it’s not easy. And I suppose what you learn from presenting this show with Stu, what I’ve learned about adoption is that through adoption, you are forced to ask yourself more questions and be challenged on things a lot more than you are as a biological parent or any other kind of parent.
Stu: And I think one of the, I think it was so positive about your story, Nathan, is that like you have been through adoption and now you are adopting. And I think that’s a really positive message for a lot of people out there. And kind of on that point, can you talk a bit about what it’s like to be an adult adoptee, especially for listeners and myself and Leon, you know, who we have adopted children and we want to know what they’re going to be thinking and feeling when, when they grow up, I believe you have a relationship now with your biological parents.
So, what is that whole experience been like for you and, and how you navigated that also with your, with adopted
Nathan: family? So that’s another positive, I think, in a credit towards my adoptive parents, that they were always very open and transparent about everything I’ve encountered children, sometimes that were.
Transracial adoptees and with white parents through, uh, work that I’ve done and the parents will say that the kids are adopted. I’m like, Oh wow. I am too. And blah, blah, blah. And they’re like, Oh shit. You know, he doesn’t know. And it’s like, this five-year-old Colombian, boy. That’s like my complexion with like black hair.
And the mom has like, you know, blonde hair and blue eyes. And I’m like, I just kind of drop it. But I mean, that is so. Messed up. Like that’s going to just totally mess that kid up in the head. But I always knew, like, I feel like my parents started with us when we were really young and, you know, they told us stories about which I’m going to do with my kids too, that, you know, your parents just couldn’t take care of you.
And so they loved you enough that they were willing to give you, um, it to a different family that could take care of you and give you everything that you needed. So I didn’t really ever grow up with that abandonment story hanging over me. That a lot of people do. And then, you know, I found my birth parents when I was 25.
So it’s been almost 20, it’ll be 25 years ago this year. And my adoptive parents were extremely supportive and that’s not always the case. Like a lot of adoptive parents get really nervous and jealous and just afraid that like, you’re just going to like leave them or whatever, but they created a space for me to just.
Explore this on my own. And they participated in the reunion and that was just beautiful, you know, just to have that acknowledgement and support in a way that made me feel like I was doing something good and not something bad, like behind their back. And that just, you know, that that was a whole other Pandora’s box and kind of a good and bad way, but I’m glad I waited until I was 25, because there was so many emotions that flew out of this door when I opened it, that I was not prepared for.
And I guess I knew going into it that I had to be ready for this barrage of all this stuff, because it was a lot, it was a lot and I’m still. Kind of sorting through that stuff 25 years later.
Stu: And did, as part of that Pandora’s box, did it also open up wider family, biological family as well? Because that’s something I’m always curious with with my children is like when it comes to cousins, uncles, grandparents, that, you know, that side of things as
Nathan: well.
It did, I have a brother and sister on my white side of the family, and then I’ve got a brother and sister on my black side of the family. They live in The Bahamas and like there’s a whole slew of relatives down there. And my birth mother as well. I had a relationship with her mother who passed away like five years ago, her father was actually racist.
And that was the reason why, the main reason why she had to give me up. And he never knew he knew this. He had gotten pregnant, but he never knew that she had, that gave birth to a biracial child, even on his deathbed. He, they never told him which. I dunno, that’s a whole other thing. It was a lot, you know, being like this same dealer identity.
And then all of a sudden you’re thrust into these family units that have this history together. And then I’m just like, once again was like the outsider, you know, and like on one hand that we were all these similarities and really cool things that I found and uncovered, but then it’s like, I had to face that.
That consistent trend of like, I am the black sheep. I’m always the black sheep, like literally and figuratively. Yeah. With again,
Leon: an identity. We don’t want to speak about this to our listeners coming to understand it because it’s something that I speak about my platform quite a lot. And I spoken to quite a few transracial adoptees and they both.
So you said it went through a phase of almost rejecting their, their blackness and I’m focused on their blackness. Cause that’s kind of, that’s generally the makeup of the transit transracial adoptees that I speak with. They go through a phase of rejecting that side of them and not identifying with it to the opposite and really seeking out friends partners.
Culture, like almost like a sponge. It’s almost like they’re making up for lost time. Oh
Nathan: yeah. I mean, I would have to say like, honestly, I feel like, and there still is like, I mean I’m half white. Of course I identify as black though, but there’s still as I think this huge part of my psyche that is white, you know?
Cause I was raised as a white middle-class kid in Wisconsin, you know? And as a kid, you know, you kind of go through these phases where you take on different identities and masks and ways of being, and I just. I would forget sometimes, you know, that I wasn’t white. And I think I had an image of myself that was different.
And then when I was in high school and I was straight at that point in time, straight ish, uh, I had a girlfriend who was biracial and adopted by white parents as well. And we were just like this. Like we finally, like I found another like black sheep and we just came together and created our own world.
And they had like a minority youth group at the school. We have 1200 kids at our school and there was like 10 of us that were in this thing. And it was just refreshing. And I, I kind of started wearing like these African medallions that were really popular back then in the late eighties. And, you know, had like my hair faded with the Gumby cut and it just, I felt really excited to lean into that.
Reality that I hadn’t really participated in. And then I moved to Minneapolis, like the day after I graduated from high school. And while Minnesota is still very white, like the twin cities have a large black population and it was just so healing to just be around other people. And I made the choice that I wanted to.
Create a place in, within black culture. And so through a whole bunch of different things, I traveled to Brazil, like 13 times between 2001 and 2012. So I could root myself in that type of black culture. I did a lot, like I, the black identity that I constructed is like, no joke. It’s no joke. And it’s mine because I made it myself.
Lotte: Nathan, can I, can I ask what you think the biggest issues with transracial adoption are at the moment and what you think. Can be done to improve the situation. If you think it’s a situation that needs
Nathan: improving. Yeah. Well just, you know, speaking of the U S I just feel like it needs to, and I think they’re starting to get a little bit, bit better, but I feel like they cast this wide net where they’re like, Oh, well, we’re not going to let white people adopt.
We’re going to let. Black, we’re going to try to find black people, you know, that’s great and stuff, but I just think that there are, you know, sometimes white people will adopt children of color. And that’s just the fact. And I think that people just need to embrace that. But I think what needs to change is that there just needs to be a more solid educational aspect for white parents before they actually even get to the point of.
Um, finalizing anything. It was people always say to, like, if you’re thinking, if you’re white and you’re thinking about adopting a black tile, like you should ask yourself first, do you have any black friends? You know, and if you don’t even have one black friend, then you need to spend a year or two and just kind of like root yourself in that reality, because that’s, that speaks volumes.
And I think that there just needs to be like cultural sensitivity and. You know, black history, just different things like that, that they, they must be required to learn for a year or so before they actually can start the process. I just think it’s really crucial. They don’t do anything like that here, as far as I know.
Um, and it’s, it’s sad, you know? Cause I think it’s almost as if they, it doesn’t matter, like it’s not important because love wins at the end of the day. And I’m like, sometimes love just isn’t enough. If you want to have a kid, that’s not completely. Messed up in the head and it’s gonna like hate
Lotte: you. We haven’t really, interestingly really talked about your experiences as a gay parent or a gay child.
Nathan: Funny little story. My parents, when I graduated from high school and I was still kind of, you know, coming to terms with my sexuality and stuff, but I’d come out to them when I was 22, they went to some, I don’t know if you have like P flag over there so that parents and friends of lesbians and gays, it’s one of those support groups.
So they went to some. Group like that in my hometown. And they told me about it and I was horrified because I wasn’t still really comfortable. And I thought, Oh my God, if there’s parents of kids that I went to high school with, and they said, yeah, you know, we were talking about you in the group. And we kind of came to the conclusion that because you were biracial and gay and adopted by white parents, that your, your younger life must have been really challenging.
I’m like, uh, yeah, like I said, I’ve been trying to tell you for the last, like, At that point, like 20 some years or whatever, but it was really interesting to hear my life, like contextualize like that, you know? Cause I never really thought about it like that. It was just the cards that I was dealt and I just figured it out, but it did add a whole other.
Layer of oppression, I think to just psychologically, how to integrate yourself when you have all these areas of being shunned and omitted and kind of looked at like, there’s something wrong with you. And then finally maybe getting into the fold of the black community and then, you know, the black church in the U S is like, Has had a history of a lot of issues with homophobia, not to say that the white churches haven’t, but then you kind of get into that fold and then you realize that you’re being rejected because you’re gay, you know?
And so it’s like, well, where can you turn? You know, so. Thankfully, I think like the black community black gay community in the U S has just been very strong for a very long time. As far as creating a chosen family, black gay brothers are really great support system for me. So
Stu: yeah. Before we went onto the conversation about when you were younger, I was just thinking the differences between the adoption processes, I suppose, between the UK and the us, because I feel and correct me if I’m wrongly on, on this, but I feel that.
Through the whole process in the UK that we’d go through the cultural education and understanding would come up quite a lot in the various panels. Or is that something you don’t think does happen enough here in the UK? Leon?
Leon: I think it’s a good question. Actually. I don’t think our system does that per se.
I think a lot of that does really need to come from the adopters that I’ve spoken to. They almost feel that well, you know, they should be people from the black community, for example, who are. Supporting them with their, um, uh, bringing their child and implementing this culture, which I always pushed back.
That’s that was your decision that needs to come from you. You need to do the work, you need to, you know, understand the cultural differences and the important things that’s on you. And also you need to understand that being a parent of a black child, what that’s going to come and are you willing to take on your tails oppression?
Um, You know, trauma and everything else I’ve been offered a role to sit on panel for an, for an adoption organization. And one of the key things that I’ve been or shown an interest in and they received it well is making sure that I’m sat on panels were trans racial adoption is taking place because I feel like a lot of the white panel members just simply don’t know the questions to ask.
And it kind of brings back to what we were saying earlier on. It’s almost like, well, I don’t wanna say the wrong thing, so I’ll just not ask, but in this situation, You, can’t not ask, you need to understand, is this going to be the right match for the child? And of course, all children need love that that’s a no brainer, but as Nathan said, it requires more than just love.
It requires understanding and education and you, you, you need to do the work. So I think, you know, when I stopped panel, which I’m super excited about, I’m going to ask those questions and, you know, may be uncomfortable for some of the other panel members who are not used to those questions, but it’s so
Nathan: important.
I was just going to say, like, I, I got this thought of, I got really into this book, white fragility during this whole time with George Floyd and some situations that were happening with white FA family members than me. I think that there is a huge aspect of white fragility that has to be conquered within some of these parents that are, that do get really triggered and they do get really uncomfortable and you just really have to ask, well, why, why is it such a big deal?
But I think that that plays a role, huge part in it. You know, it’s, there’s so much, yeah. I mean, there’s so many questions and so many scenarios, it’s just like never ending, you know, but I think that’s amazing. And I think people need to be feel uncomfortable because. I felt uncomfortable all my childhood, you know?
So like what’s feeling uncomfortable on a panel or something for like a moment or, or even like having to take classes and stuff like nothing compared to what your children have to go through. So.
Stu: Totally you’ve mentioned parenting missions, I think in relation to your own adoptive families, mission, et cetera.
So to end this conversation today, Nathan, I just wanted to know, what would you say is your ultimate parenting mission for your own children
Nathan: taking a really holistic approach? Because I, because of my experience, I understand that there are all of these different. Areas that must be attended to, and I have to stay conscious enough to be aware of it because I kind of, I can kind of understand why my parents just slipped out of that and being people who have never been an other, like how would they know?
You know what I mean? But then even me being an other and having gone through that, I have to constantly remind myself. So I think just attending to all of those needs and then just creating an environment that is. Wish my parents did do open conversation. They were always willing to say like, you can come to us and talk about anything.
And I think that’s really important too, depending on where we end up. And my daughter has got like, her name is, and I just want her to be able to come to me if she’s got, has some sort of racial issue or questions about her birth parents, because there’s a lot of mental health challenges going on. I think just hypothetically, like being available to.
Discuss those stories and be honest with them, you know, just transparency and cultural, emergent, and awareness, and creating an open environment to talk. Those things are really important to me.
Lotte: That’s brilliant advice, I think as well for, for anyone listening and in similar situations to you. So thank you
Stu: today.
It’s
Nathan: fun. I love talking about this stuff. So thank you so much.
Stu: So
Lotte: interesting. And I trust that you’re writing a book on the subject. Yeah. Or in
Nathan: some way, not yet, but I’ve thought about it in my spare time.
Leon: Nathan, thank you so much for joining us and thank you. Locked in Steve for letting me come back as a guest host and it’s nice to chat to you again.
Lotte: It’s been a real pleasure. We’ve loved having you on. Thank you. Do you want to tell our listeners where they can. Contact us.
Leon: Ooh privilege. Okay. So you can contact some families on Instagram or Twitter at some families pod, or you can email@somefamiliesatstoryhunter.co.uk.
Uh,
Stu: Leon. You’re about to read my part. Thank you very much. He’s not coming back as a guest host again, Lottie, if he’s going to step over my lines, go on Leon. You tell them where our website
Leon: is at. Are you sure I’ve been dying to this whole episode because our website is www dot some families, pod.com, where you can find a full transcripts and past episodes.
Thanks for listening. Or would you like to do my parts too?
Stu: Okay. Well, thanks for listening everyone. And we hope that you did enjoy this episode and honestly, Leon, thank you so much for joining us. Uh, it was so wonderful to have you with us here today. We’ll be back next
Lotte: week with another
Stu: episode. So until then goodbye.
Lotte: This episode was produced and edited by Hattie Moir.
Stu: Some families is a StoryHunter production.